[ritchiediaz]

Other than the obvious book of antiquity, based on the events in TTH, I'd like to speculate that the Jaghut War on Death may have been Gothos original Folly.

What do we have:-

Gothos is easily one of the most powerful characters we have encountered, and very likely the most powerful Jaghut (only Hood is likely to come close).
Gothos Folly is singular, it is not Gothos Follies...
The Jaghut fought a War against Death and they numbered in the hundreds of millions.
We find out this information in TTH very shortly after Kallor has spoken with Gothos, and it is clear that the revelation chnages Kallor's opinion of Gothos.

Some quotes and comments:-

Quote

"Think of these people. Think of them, High King. The sacrifice they made for us all. Think of the Jaghut, and the impossible victory won in the heart of defeat.'

Quote

"We fought. We refused to retreat. We failed. We fell. So many of us fell – should we have believed otherwise? Should we have held to our faith in the righteousness of our cause, even as we came to believe we were doomed?"

Quote

"Grieve for the chains that bind all life, that you can never break. Weep, for me and my fallen kin – who did not hesitate to join a war that could not be won."

It seems to me that a 'war that could not be won' and 'impossible victory' could be decsribed as... folly.

Another key word here 'join' a war; who instigated this war and lead the call?

Obviously Hood would be the most obvious candidate, being the Lord of Death, but what was Gothos role in all this?

Feel free to rip this apart!

[nargoroth]

i think the book raised alot more questions then it answer. The revelations of Gothos admitting to the jaghut going to war against death, only to find out hood is a jaghut confused me really. Was Hood a ultra powerful tyrant who claimed dominion over death, or was it a faceless force like chaos that the jaghut went to war with, and Hood took lordship over it to give it a face and predictability or structure?

Sorry if this sounds dumb, just some early morning musings after finishing the book.

[mot]

In the introduction to Reaper's Gale, didn't we see Gothos admit to disillusionment concerning the divine? Meaning, there is a point in his introspection where he admits that at one point he believed that there was a guiding force behind history, but that he no longer did so. I wonder if there is a connection between this admission and the failed war against Death. Was his Folly believing that the force was with him (pardon the pun) when there was no force to begin with? And with that, now the greater question--is there a guiding force in the series? I know that it doesn't seem that there is, but....?

[Dr Trouble]

I don't think Hood was god of death at the time of the war. But we don't know, do we?

I find it hard to believe though, I think that Hood took the position after.

As for your theory Ritch>> I doubt it, I think "Folly" is more directed at how he lived his life. What we know of him, he's fucked up a lot, so I don't find it to much of a stretch that he considers his life a folly.

And just because he is the one of most powerful Jaghut (Perhaps, I mean there isn't many left now is there?) At the moment, doesn't mean in the past there weren't others that surpassed him.

Also, Jaghut culture would have made the decision to go to war as a entire race. Not just one person. No way could Gothos take the blame for it.

[scabandari]

the jaghuts called it a war on death not on hood so maybe they replaced the then ruler of death with the jaghut hood as he didn't seem evil as he saved that guard who had died from a heart attack when he was summoned. so maybe the jaghuts couldn't get rid of death completely but put a kinder presence on the throne

[Agraba]

I'd say that at the time period of Jaghut legions, Gothos was some sort of scientist. At least we know he has scientific background from the scene where he gave Nimander and co. a lecture on evolutionary genetics - maybe that's little to base it on, considering I don't even study biology but I knew exactly what he was talking about. But then his son (Icarium: the good son) seemed to be a master engineer, and the device he built in Lether had a biological aspect to it - it requires an input of blood. Maybe he got a little something from daddy (of course we have no idea of how inheritance of knowledge worked in Jaghut civilization; in our world a man who hasn't a clue what an atom is could have a son winning a Nobel Prize in physics).

Also, I think Tulas Shorn meant "war" in a figurative sense. I think the "war" was really an endeavour taken on by the most powerful sorcerers (and scientists maybe?) to fashion something like an afterlife. And it was such a long and harrowing endeavour that death took its toll on many researchers. It could have been such a famous project that millions of Jhagut over a span of many generations had taken it on.

[Dr Trouble]

But he describes a scene of Millions of Jaghut marching to war, doesn't he? (I really can't remember the specifics >_>)

[Agraba]

Trouble;362145 said:

But he describes a scene of Millions of Jaghut marching to war, doesn't he? (I really can't remember the specifics >_>)

I don't have it on me, but I remember the impression I had when he gave the speech. I think, maybe, he described millions of Jaghut - numbering in the "legions" - in order to paint a scene which Kallor formed in his head of a marching army. But when he said "that enemy was none other than Death itself" that was supposed to be a twist, I think, to indicate that the generic image we would conjure isn't the right kind of image at all. Anyways, that just seems to perfectly fit the profound tone of his speech.

[Sinisdar Toste]

to answer the original question...i thought gothos folly was meant literally, as in the folly was his attempting to write a complete history of the world from its inception onwards

[Sindriss]

Agraba;362156 said:

I don't have it on me, but I remember the impression I had when he gave the speech. I think, maybe, he described millions of Jaghut - numbering in the "legions" - in order to paint a scene which Kallor formed in his head of a marching army. But when he said "that enemy was none other than Death itself" that was supposed to be a twist, I think, to indicate that the generic image we would conjure isn't the right kind of image at all. Anyways, that just seems to perfectly fit the profound tone of his speech.

Page 574 and 575 in TtH

"No. There were some among us who chose to join in this war, to fight alongside the Jaghut armies"

Yes, an entire people gathered, a host of singular will. Legions uncountable. Their standard was rage, their clarion call injustice. WHen they marched, swords beating on shields, time ifself found measure, a hundred million hearts of edged iron. Not even you, High King, could imagine such a sight - your empire was less than a squall to that terrible storm"

[I]Yes again, High king. When you forged your empire, it was on the dust of that time, that grand contest, that most bold assault. we fought. We refused to retreat. We failed. We fell. So many of us fell should we have believed otherwise? Should we have held to our faight in the righteousness of our cause, even as we came to believe that we were doomed?

Pretty clear it was a big battle, if you look at the words used. Fought, retreat, fell, march, swords beating on shields etc.

Feel free to rep me

[Agraba]

Well maybe those were... uh.. figurative swords, and maybe it was... a figurative march......

*slinks back into the shadows*

[Dance]

Mmm.

I recall from somewhere that Gothos' Folly was a suicide note without end, which means the name is self-explanatory. But I can't recall where or if it's actually just a theory.

[Skywalker]

I found this quote in DG where Heboric says

Quote

Gothos's Folly. Gothos's curse was in being too aware—of everything. Every permutation, every potential. Enough to poison every scan he cast on the world. It availed him naught, and worse, he was aware of even that...

I always thought the 'Folly' was the act of writing the book itself... assuming it would have any value... that lessons would be learnt from it and so on.

Then there is the Chapter heading of Ch 9 in MOI:

Quote

Should we give credence to Gothos's hoary tome, his glorious 'Folly'?

which (I know isn't definitive but) does refer to the book itself as the 'Folly'...

But then people refer to GoTM as Gardens as well...

So my take on Gothos' Folly is that his folly was either curiosity or the act of writing something.

[Sindriss]

I think you are on to something. My current theory is that the folly consisted of him continuing to write his book, even thought his negative spirit poisoned his every glance at the world around him. If that makes any sense

[bubba]

Quote

folly




Main Entry: fol·ly
Pronunciation: ˈfä-lē
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural follies
Etymology: Middle English folie, from Anglo-French, from fol fool
Date: 13th century
1: lack of good sense or normal prudence and foresight
2 a: criminally or tragically foolish actions or conduct obsolete : evil, wickedness; especially : lewd behavior
3: a foolish act or idea
4: an excessively costly or unprofitable undertaking
5: an often extravagant picturesque building erected to suit a fanciful taste

I think we can take our pick of all but the fifth one.......

[eekwibble]

Since the Chicken isn't here I'll take a shot at it.

*ahem*
Go Gadget logic - Check
Go Gadget knowledge - Check
Go Gadget sarcasm - Check
Go Gadget Bold Print - Check
Go Gadget Caps Lock - CHECK
GO GADGET SIZE ALTERATION - CHECK
GO GADGET RED TONE - CHECK
GO, GO GADGET;
GOTHOS' FOLLY WAS A REALLY LONG BOOK WRITTEN BY GOTHOS AND QUOTED NUMEROUS AMOUNTS OF TIMES THROUGHOUT THE SERIES, VARIOUS INCARNATIONS AND PAGES OF WHICH HAVE BEEN LOST, FOUND AND LOST (THANKFULLY) ALL OVER AGAIN!
NOT FIGURATIVE! NOT AN INSINUATION!
A. BOOK.

eekwibble - usurping baconland (and drunk - again)

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Take it to the Inn, drunky.

[ritchiediaz]

I note in the first line that it is obviously a book.


However usually book titles have some meaning or inference:-

"Deadhouse Gates" is a book, but the title refers to an Azath House :shocked:

Erikson and Cam name their own books with reference to the content held within, is it really that much of a stretch that the title of a book within the books would be similar?

Quote

an excessively costly or unprofitable undertaking

Cheers - I like this one - it fits nicely with my barking theory!

I should probably have titled the thread:-

What was Gothos' "Folly"?

[Ayrin]

I think too that the book is the Folly. Also, the part about a "suicide note without end" is just wonderful. As long as there is more to write, the writer will live on .

[VigoTheCarpathian]

Gothos' Folly referred to both his life, and his lengthy recording of it. And possibly Icarium

As an aside, I envisioned the Jaghut war with death was essentially a larger scale version of the battle that occurred w/in Dragnipur: bunch of Jaghut warring with chaos. Possibly resulting in them wresting/creating an afterlife for souls to go to instead of disappearing into original chaos.

Basically, order achieving a small victory at an enormous cost, and which might explain Hood's position in HHD.