[Dravon]

Wry, on Apr 16 2009, 05:59 PM, said:

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name='Dravon' date='Apr 16 2009, 06:39 PM' post='574367']

Wry, on Apr 15 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

Why is the the choice only between fights and boredom? I don't need every chapter to end wth a battle royale, i do need engaging story line and characters who have a reason to be in the book. Lets see in this book we had karsa walking for no reason, Kallor walking for no reason, nimandor and co walking for no reason, Dassem walking for no reason. Three quarters of the book was just everyone wandering to an epic convergence... pointlessly. In a good book (like SE's first ones) the getting from A to B is the story.

The narative was shadowbox, what is really going on isnt revealed until after the fact, it all becomes clear in hindsight alot like life in that way. He didnt give the reader as many advanatges this time around but take into consideration that he had already taken 7 books to establish these charaters and the world they live in so he really didnt need to hold our hands through the book.

And all the characters are going some place and we didnt know where for 3/4 of the book, but that was the point in this book.

Rubbish. That argument would make sense if i hadn't read the final quarter. But i did and all it showed was that SE had this really great scene in his head and wanted to write about it. Fine write the scene, publish it as a novella and be proud of your work. DON'T fill up 600 pages of pointless padding just to facilitate the final, good bit. Why did Dassem even go to Darujhistan? Because SE wanted Dassem and Rake to fight in Darujhistan. no other reason.

He has alot of characters walking round doing nothing. that only works if you've a few characters and you spend alot of time building those characters and their relationship to the reader. turning them into real people whom the reader cares about. Instead SE did his usual jumping around so you don't feel any real attachment to any individual. This worked before because the plot was strong. This one wasn't and that just emphasised a recognised flaw in his writing - his poor characters.

This book felt like porn, i was fast forwarding untill people started taking their clothes off. So to speak.

1. Dassem; Why does Dassem do ANYTHING he went there to kill Hood. Rake got in his way and though it ripped his heart out, he killed Rake. Because Dassem can not turn away from his vengence it's all he is anymore.

2. Well my only advise to you then is to reread the book because in those 3/4 of the book SE does things with narative that i have only seen done cinematically (kruppe's story). And here is the kicker before i started my reread i would have been in more agreement with you.

[Wry]

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1. Dassem; Why does Dassem do ANYTHING he went there to kill Hood. Rake got in his way and though it ripped his heart out, he killed Rake. Because Dassem can not turn away from his vengence it's all he is anymore.

I did read the book, and know dassems motivations. The point remains Why did he have to tramp all over the continent (and the whole book) to reach a creature that lives in another warren? Go to the warren of death (everyone else manages to find it ok). Ok so Hood manifested himself in Daru, maybe that's why he had to go there. Wait that only happens 600 pages after Dassem starts out. Why the only motivations for a characters actions are to create a cool scene, that's a problem.

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2. Well my only advise to you then is to reread the book because in those 3/4 of the book SE does things with narative that i have only seen done cinematically (kruppe's story). And here is the kicker before i started my reread i would have been in more agreement with you.

I don't need a reread, twice is enough for me. Don't be patronising, this is not Goodkind where if i don't like it it's because i don't understand it. I do understand, it's just not as good as his other books.

[Dravon]

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I don't need a reread, twice is enough for me. Don't be patronising, this is not Goodkind where if i don't like it it's because i don't understand it. I do understand, it's just not as good as his other books.

Well first Goodkind is not in the same league Writing wise as SE. And all im saying is i think the narative in this book makes it maybe the best written on the series. Though just for fun to read ive likes others more.

[Grief]

Wry, Dassem would get owned if he went to the warren of death. There's no way he could take Hood in his own realm, but gods are vulnerable in the mortal world. Though frankly i'd be surprised if Dassem could com close to Hood in terms of sheer power anyway.

I agree that a lot of the motivations and stuff seem a bit contrived, and wasn't a big fan of some of the stuff he did, for example adding in the dying god wihtout even a hint in previous books.

I would agree that it is less consistent than some of the other books in the series, it is more patchy, and there are bits that I didn't find interesting.

The ending however was stunning.

Yes, not all the motivations were perfect, but most of them had at least some reason for being there, some wanted dragnipur, Dassem wanted Hood(though this is the one I want more motication on, something hopefully revealed in later books), Kallor wanted a throne...

There were various reasons for everyone being there, some of which were certainly better than others.

[Salt-Man Z]

Why was Dassem heading to Darujhistan? How he did he know Hood would be manifesting there? Beats me. I loved the book, but I agree that too much of it just feels contrived.

[Grief]

Well, Dassem is pretty much a god now, so I suppose that's one way he might know, or ST and Cots may have told him at some point.

There are possible explanations, but i'd like it to be confirmed in the books.

[Wry]

Grief, on Apr 16 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

Wry, Dassem would get owned if he went to the warren of death. There's no way he could take Hood in his own realm, but gods are vulnerable in the mortal world. Though frankly i'd be surprised if Dassem could com close to Hood in terms of sheer power anyway.

I agree that a lot of the motivations and stuff seem a bit contrived, and wasn't a big fan of some of the stuff he did, for example adding in the dying god wihtout even a hint in previous books.

I would agree that it is less consistent than some of the other books in the series, it is more patchy, and there are bits that I didn't find interesting.

The ending however was stunning.

Yes, not all the motivations were perfect, but most of them had at least some reason for being there, some wanted dragnipur, Dassem wanted Hood(though this is the one I want more motication on, something hopefully revealed in later books), Kallor wanted a throne...

There were various reasons for everyone being there, some of which were certainly better than others.

Well you pretty much agreed with everything i said. Most of the book is weak with an explosive ending.

I would point out that whe you have to start inventing reasons for characters to do what they do, to make up for a lack on the authors part, this is a bad sign.

[Grief]

I would argue that a book should not spell everything out exactly.

No, i'm not going to make up reasons for characters to do things, what I am saying is that there are motivations that could fit, or factors we don't know about, and that may be revealed later. Or at least, I'm hoping they will.

[Wry]

I never asked for everything to be spelled out for me. But a bit of logical consistency is different. And if i have to invent reasons for characters doing thing that are nonsensical, especially when they are a major plot arc, again that's a problem. one that didn't exist in the other books.

This post has been edited by Wry: 16 April 2009 - 09:50 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

there is just way to many factors involved in this convergence and SE doesn't spend time on directly addressing all the different influences, he talks bout scorch n leff, torvald and harllo. he shows travellers non-crazy side as he pals around with karsa, and he gives us the oldest andii on the world besides rake. he leaves most of the rest to us. after eight books in this world and knowing all thats happened the rest wasn't that hard for me. this is fantasy, logical consistency means something totally different.

yes, the dying god and redeemer parts were slightly unnecessary, but not unwelcome. at least IMO.

[Grimjust Bearegular]

Grief, on Apr 16 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

Wry, Dassem would get owned if he went to the warren of death. There's no way he could take Hood in his own realm, but gods are vulnerable in the mortal world. Though frankly i'd be surprised if Dassem could com close to Hood in terms of sheer power anyway.

I agree that a lot of the motivations and stuff seem a bit contrived, and wasn't a big fan of some of the stuff he did, for example adding in the dying god wihtout even a hint in previous books.

well, the Dying God only came to be because of what Iccy did in RG right? Bellurdan hitched a ride with Iccy's machine as it made it's way through Chaos, and was brought into the real world when Iccy crashed. And there he stayed trying to fashion a body for himself, like Hairlock did. So earlier mentions of him wouldn't have made sense, I think.

[Chris]

Grimhilde, on Apr 17 2009, 05:08 AM, said:

Grief, on Apr 16 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

Wry, Dassem would get owned if he went to the warren of death. There's no way he could take Hood in his own realm, but gods are vulnerable in the mortal world. Though frankly i'd be surprised if Dassem could com close to Hood in terms of sheer power anyway.

I agree that a lot of the motivations and stuff seem a bit contrived, and wasn't a big fan of some of the stuff he did, for example adding in the dying god wihtout even a hint in previous books.

well, the Dying God only came to be because of what Iccy did in RG right? Bellurdan hitched a ride with Iccy's machine as it made it's way through Chaos, and was brought into the real world when Iccy crashed. And there he stayed trying to fashion a body for himself, like Hairlock did. So earlier mentions of him wouldn't have made sense, I think.

And something had to step into the void left by the fall of the Pannion Domin. And whatever followed that mess was not going to be sunshine and puppy dogs.

A crazed (seriously, crazed) group of fanatics is left behind after the fall of the Pannion Seer. The only thing resembling structure or civilization is the aloof (at best) Tiste Andii and Rake in Black Coral and the new religion or movement that eventually becomes the cult of the redeemer. Silverfox and the T'lan Imas are gone. Brood broke up his army. What's left of the Malazans leave. Gruntle, the Barghast, and the Grey Swords all leave the continent.

Whatever is going to organize the leftovers of the Pannion Domin is going to be as bad or worse than what they were following in the first place. We know (I think it was from Mael) that ascendents are shaped by their followers as much as they shape themselves. So, to a certain extent, it makes sense that a dying civilization has embraced dying in the form of the Dying God.

[Salt-Man Z]

Grimhilde, on Apr 17 2009, 05:08 AM, said:

well, the Dying God only came to be because of what Iccy did in RG right? Bellurdan hitched a ride with Iccy's machine as it made it's way through Chaos, and was brought into the real world when Iccy crashed. And there he stayed trying to fashion a body for himself, like Hairlock did. So earlier mentions of him wouldn't have made sense, I think.

What? The "UFO" that crashed on Genebackis and helped create the Dying God = Icarium's AFAIK stationary memory-transfer machine buried under Letharas? This is actually a going theory?

[Aptorian]

After the prologue of DOD that now seems unlikely...

[Dravon]

Aptorian, on Apr 17 2009, 08:52 PM, said:

After the prologue of DOD that now seems unlikely...

It was just a KCCM single person flier that got stuck in chaos, i thought. And doesnt Kallor even say it when he see it and goes and has a look?

[Abyss]

Flyer, yes, but we're not told anything about the pilot, so we don't know that it was K'chain.

- Abyss, notes lizards make horrible pilots...

[Abyss]

Optimus Prime, on Jul 21 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

Abyss;356330 said:

...Plus it seems the gate to KG is now located in the throne room - who knows how that plays out - will Chaos be assaulting the city directly? Will the Liosan?
...

I've been thinking the same thing. But shouldn't MD's presence ward off most attackers? I mean...she's freaking MOTHER DARK.

That would be the neat and tidy resolution to the whole question of the gate and Chaos - so long as the Mommy Creator of the Universe is actively hanging around, Chaos cannot harm the gate, the city or Mommy D herself, as opposed to when she was 'dormant', acting only through Anathana, with the gate cut off from the world and stuck in Dragnipur.
I don't know if it's intentional, but it reflects the move from wandering to holds to warrens somewhat.

It also solidified the link between Black Coral and Kurald Galain, which is interesting if we ever learn more about the implications of that.

kalmavet7, on Jul 24 2008, 01:08 AM, said:

...Hood shocking Paran doesn't really prove anything though. He could just easily have said, "i'm out as king of death, make me a card for ice," which would be just as shocking if not moreso. ...i'm not saying hood's favor couldn't be the army entering the sword, it's certainly possible. i just like the alternative theory better. Neither would surprise me.

Looking elsethread, this might explain how Hood was able to get his armies into Dragnipur even tho in theory he had died and was no longer God of Death, assuming that's what happened.

I like the notion that he wanted Paran to 'reactivate' the Hold of Ice, tho'.


- Abyss, thread necromancing...

[Mentalist]

hmm
I've been on a binge Malaz re-read for the last month.
whilst it wasn't as bad as the first time I read the series (bought the first 6 at once, and would stay up til 4 AM reading, and then go to work at 7), I was stil fairly hooked, and powered through them all up to and including RotCG. Every spare minute would be spent reading.

TTH was different though. I like it, it's ending is incredibly powerful and epic, and I didnt' really mind all of the filler (because I like it when SE rambles off in remebering a history of yet another tribe/empire/long-dead-hero--makes the world seem richer to me), but there were definitely some pacing issues in the first 2 parts of the book.

also, I found it ironic that despite all the cataclysmic deaths, TTH is the one book where we get the largest number of happy endings for various minor plot lines.

[poeg]

The Hood needing Ganoes Paran doesn't make any sense. In Bonhunters you have an old "hood used to hang here" realm. Its more likely than not where goes Hood so too goes his realm. Also I always pictured Hood's trade with Ganoes Paran being, "Find me an heir." Thus the "oh crap" we see from him and in that a great little story arc "Looking for Mr Hoodbar."

[Aptorian]

Hood was looking for a Wife.

I'm sure Illuyankas will soon arrive to explain the finner details of that theory as it is surely one of his favorites.