[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Urb, on 03 December 2009 - 06:40 AM, said:

Karsa never fights the way you expect him to fight.
And Traveler is just as discomforted by the notion of Karsa killing Hounds of Shadow/Darkness.

That said, most of the people on this forum are total Rake and Dassem fanboys and very likely to agree with you.


EDIT: Welcome to the forum

The difference of course being, when Traveller hears about Karsa killing the Deragoth, and then the possibility of him getting Rhulad's sword, his reaction is that he would have to step in and stop him, because he couldn't allow anyone with that sword to be walking around. When Karsa actually sees Traveller in action against Rake he shits himself.

Edit: I wrote that Traveller was fighting himself...

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 03 December 2009 - 07:47 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Yeah. I have to agree.

I'm neither a Rake nor a Dassem fan, but if Karsa Orlong, arrogance in person, tells someone that only a fool would go against those two, I think it pretty much means that they surclass him.

But of course these discussions are pointless, so never mind

[Abyss]

Salt-Man Z, on 16 April 2009 - 08:47 PM, said:

Why was Dassem heading to Darujhistan? How he did he know Hood would be manifesting there? Beats me. I loved the book, but I agree that too much of it just feels contrived.

Grief, on 16 April 2009 - 09:06 PM, said:

Well, Dassem is pretty much a god now, so I suppose that's one way he might know, or ST and Cots may have told him at some point.

There are possible explanations, but i'd like it to be confirmed in the books.

Just necroposting the above points to note that 'convergence' (power draws power) has been a running theme in the books since GotM and it was strongly the point of TtH. The resolution of the 'preventing the end of the universe' thread required something HUGE and the book was about all the various bits and pices coming together, including those forces that would have interferred (the Dying God, Kallor, the HoLs), and the people stuck in the middle of it (the BB's, Cutter and co).

Wes, on 02 December 2009 - 07:45 AM, said:

I dont know about BEST FIGHT WE NEVER GT TO SEE because Traveller would've fucked up Karsa easily...in my opinion when karsa watched traveller and rake fighting, it was the first time we see Karsa shocked or a lil bit scared...he even said that "only a fool would step between these two" or somethin like that

My point was that i LOVED how that played out, rather than it turning into a pointless swordfight to satisfy the ho'd winnies.

Urb, on 03 December 2009 - 06:40 AM, said:

Karsa never fights the way you expect him to fight.
...Welcometo the forum

welcome seconded, btw, And anyways, having seen Dassem fight, Karsa would likely not fight 'fair' in any event. His two major fights, Icarium and Rhulad, were 'won' by not fighting to kill. By purely hypothetical example, I wouldn't put it past Karsa to just toss away his sword and stand there, which means Dassem, all honourable, pauses, then Karsa facepunches his godlights out. Or maybe a headbutt.

rhulad, on 03 December 2009 - 03:49 PM, said:

I'm very new to the series (came across it about a year and a half ago) but the last 200 or so pages of TtH blew my f**king mind.

Welcome. Right there with you on the finale.

Bauchelain the Evil, on 03 December 2009 - 04:20 PM, said:

Yeah. I have to agree.

I'm neither a Rake nor a Dassem fan, but if Karsa Orlong, arrogance in person, tells someone that only a fool would go against those two, I think it pretty much means that they surclass him.

But of course these discussions are pointless, so never mind

- Abyss, ...notes the answer is ALWAYS Wolverine.

[TheImperial]

Ok so only about a year and a half late to the party on this one, but I just finished up TTH last night at about midnight. I share some of the comments others have made about the book being pretty slow going through most of the text. I don't think I really enjoyed the use of Kruppe as narrator too much.

And though this might rile things up, I only shrugged when Rake died. Never been a fan of the character of the Andii as a whole - just too emo and perfect. Now if Kallor would have gotten ahold of the sword, realized the curse was never going to break, and found a way to die and redeem himself, that would just be amazing (and yeah, I know the metaphysics wouldn't work with the who Kurald-D and Mother Dark thing going on).

But with that said, I still really enjoyed the book, but I'm a biased Malazan fan. Here are a couple of my thoughts and questions.

MUTHAFLIPPIN WAR MULESHow has no one mentioned the memorable - nigh, truely epic and portentous - showdown between Pust and Kruppe riding atop their noble steeds?! (Not to mention the spider D'ivers witch-wife and horde of flying lizard-monkeys) I was cracking up with the descriptions of Pust riding like a madman and the Mule just kept plodding along. And Kruppe punching Pust in the face?! Classic. I hated Pust at first - couldn't stand the character - but he's definitely grown on me.

ChaosCan someone explain this to me? Is the full force of Chaos locked into the sword and unable to enter the Malazan world or the other worlds (such as where various "demons" come from like Pearl and the Aptorian)? Is there a King of Chaos, any leaders or powerful figures we know about or do the forces of chaos exist outside the Deck fully?

Hood's Army still in the swordWhat happens to the souls still in the sword, both the handful of the chained left and the survivors of Hood's army, after they are released back into the world when Brood destroys the sword? Are they undead or fully living?And on a final note, are we ever going to find out who/what the Mule is? Elder God ala Tehol and Mael?

This post has been edited by TheImperial: 03 December 2009 - 07:12 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I'll try to answer.

Chaos. There is no King of Chaos, nor is there a true Realm of Chaos. It's simply the force present between the boundarys of realms and Warreens and as such can be used simply as another source magic. However we have seen that it's not a very good idea.(see Hairlock, Hannan Mosag etc)

Souls in Dragnipur. Most of the Army of the Dead and those Chained in Dragnipur have been destroyed and only the stronger have remained. The Army of Death will probably return to Hood's realm which we don't knoe how it will fare without its King. Its speculated that the most powerful of the beings chained in Dragnipur(Draconus, Hood) will return to full life.

[Abyss]

Agreeing with BtE above and adding that while we did see Chaos manifest 'soldiers' to fight the Chained and the dead around the wagon, i would speculate this was just a subconscious response/view the chained and dead had to being confronted with 'raw chaos' so to speak. There's no controlling mind behind it.


- Abyss, force of nature.

[TheImperial]

So if Chaos is presented as its own malevolent force of nature, capable of manifesting itself as a semi-corporeal army (corporeal enough for dead people to do battle against), and intelligent enough to pursue Mother Dark via the Gate of Darkness via the Wandering Hold within the sword, then that implies something is pulling the strings.

I'm just curious who that is and why it/he/she/they wouldn't be pulling stunts out in the Real World ® to foil Rake, Hood, and the rest of the plotters. That is, unless Tehol Beddict is the King of Chaos. Then it AAAALLL makes sense.


And also, I know its been said in a billion threads by now, but Brood taking Rake's corpse out to be buried alone - his line "Caladan Brood and Anomander Rake together again one last time" just tore me up something fierce. Made me think of my best bro back home and all the good and bad times we've gone through. So that part really got to me even though I've never been a big Rake fanboy.

[Silencer]

Yes, now that was a good line. Really emotive.

As for chaos, you have to consider that it has been 'chasing' Darkness. So it does have purpose, in some respects. But it's mindless, acting on 'instinct', one could say. But it didn't need to form the soldiers to battle the Chained - they themselves are merely manifestations of their own will/power, and so is Chaos. It was more for just practical purposes, focusing bits of power into shapes to allow it to better focus on each Chained, rather than being a wave/vortex of aimless power.

I think.

>.>

<.<

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

TheImperial, on 03 December 2009 - 10:50 PM, said:

So if Chaos is presented as its own malevolent force of nature, capable of manifesting itself as a semi-corporeal army (corporeal enough for dead people to do battle against), and intelligent enough to pursue Mother Dark via the Gate of Darkness via the Wandering Hold within the sword, then that implies something is pulling the strings.

I'm just curious who that is and why it/he/she/they wouldn't be pulling stunts out in the Real World ® to foil Rake, Hood, and the rest of the plotters. That is, unless Tehol Beddict is the King of Chaos. Then it AAAALLL makes sense.


And also, I know its been said in a billion threads by now, but Brood taking Rake's corpse out to be buried alone - his line "Caladan Brood and Anomander Rake together again one last time" just tore me up something fierce. Made me think of my best bro back home and all the good and bad times we've gone through. So that part really got to me even though I've never been a big Rake fanboy.

I'm sorry, I know a lot of people love that line by Brood. And it does sound nice. But I couldn't really attach a whole lot of emotion to it. I mean how many scenes do we see of Rake and Brood actually being in the same place? Yea, they allude to Brook and Rake going through some big stuff together, and all descriptions of their friendship are touching in that it has held up so long and its rare for two creatures as powerful as they are to have friends at all. But we know NOTHING about them together and what they've been through. To be honest Brood is a strange character to me because he hasn't done anything in the series yet even though he has been around since book 1. I mean yea, you don't want him to do anything really because it means the world is going to end, but still he hasn't done much himself except lead armies. But I digress, getting back to my original point, what if instead of Brood making the tomb, T'riss had been involved in the convergence and made the final resting place for Rake. Would people still think it is such an amazing line?

[amphibian]

Silencer, on 03 December 2009 - 11:13 PM, said:

Yes, now that was a good line. Really emotive.

As for chaos, you have to consider that it has been 'chasing' Darkness. So it does have purpose, in some respects. But it's mindless, acting on 'instinct', one could say. But it didn't need to form the soldiers to battle the Chained - they themselves are merely manifestations of their own will/power, and so is Chaos. It was more for just practical purposes, focusing bits of power into shapes to allow it to better focus on each Chained, rather than being a wave/vortex of aimless power.

What's the source you guys all have for Chaos being totally mindless?

We have next to no information regarding the motives of the Chaos forces. I'd say it's limited to "is between the warrens", "made Hairlock crazy", "been inside Dragnipur like a dog chasing its tail for hundreds of thousands of years", "gets bigger by stealing the other side's warriors" and "failed to catch the tail".

[Silencer]

@thefrog - consider, is any Warren, other than Mockra, attributed intelligence?

Chaos is by nature disorganised, its only purpose is disruption - and we see no evidence of it plotting, planning, or being in any way sentient. It chases a wagon for how many millennia?

Unlike, say, Mother Dark, who is an Elemental Force, Chaos is not described as a personification. It's a thing. There is no real evidence of it having sentience, and I think we would have seen that by now.

Now, also consider that its own nature defies any order, and we can conclude that there is no structure to its motives, no King of Chaos, no system. So, where is there provision for a mind? A truly disorganised mind is not really able to be counted, as it would have no direction anyway. Hence, Chaos is a mindless beast.

[Abyss]

Keep in mind most of what we know about Chaos amounts to a force of nature, so to speak, just doing its thing. Even the notion that Chaos was 'chasing' the gate is just a way of referring to a chain of events set in motion by the KChain Matron death cry thing, and the whole 'souls draggin the wagon' is a visualization of a ritual to keep the gate away from chaos.

Think of it this way: a rock rolling down a hill is going to hit bottom eventually. tie a chain to it and you can keep it from rolling, but sooner or later, in the sense of millions of years, the chain breaks and the rock hits bottom. That is how i see what the KChain death cry did - set the Gate and Chaos on a collision course whereas before the gate was never in danger of 'rolling'. Dragnipur tied a chain to the rock, but it's REALLY heavy, so the delay is only temporary unles you move the rock to the top of a new hill and settle it there.

The analogy is a stretch but the point is that this was a conflict between fundamental forces, and gods, lesser begins in the sense of what was happening, tried to affect the outcome.

As for the 'soldiers of chaos', well, you can see horses in the crest of a wave bearing down on you but in the end it's just a wave and it's still going to knock you over.


- Abyss, metaphysical guru.

[Dredge]

Confusions, queries, observations, opinions...

1. Great book; excellent thread.

2. Early on there's a description of a Mott Wood battle where Silanah is unleashed by Rake against Cowl. But, weren't the Crimson Guard (Cowl) and Moon's Spawn (Rake) allies at the time of Moot Wood? (Either I'm missing something obvious or I've got Cowl mixed up with someone else.)

3. The KCCM's end-of-the-universe revenge being Chaos pursuing the Gate to Darkness inside Dragnipur makes a lot of sense, and it's been discussed a lot in the last few pages. But is there absolute proof of the that that's what the KCCM's death cry set in motion? I ask only because it kinda screws up a vision I had of what the KCCM's curse actually entailed. See, for certain crucial events SE implies a non-natural explanation for seemingly natural/scientific stuff. For example: Wu's last (ie, most recent) Ice Age was actually not a natural event but the Jaghut's unleashing of Omtose Ph. as a final defense against the Imass. Likewise, when info was sprinkled about earlier in the series about the KCCM's "final solution" it uncannily echoed the notion of an enormous black hole in the centre of the universe (which current science suggests is the case in our real universe) which could devour everything. Clearly, that possibility doesn't mesh with Chaos closing in on the Gate to Darkness. Overthinking on my part? (Rare, but it does happen Of course, something about all this rings potentially true as an ironic manipulation on SE's part: suggest the KCCM's final solution is an enormous black hole, when the solution to *that* solution turns out to be saving a "black hole", the Gate to Darkness. Heh.)

4. All things considered, TTH is one helluva powerful paean to sacrifice and love. Yes, there's plenty of drama and action and loads of visceral stuff to appreciate, but at the root of it all those two themes sing out loud and clear. Sure, there are many examples of such in previous books (Coltaine, Beak, Crokus & Apsalar, etc) but never have these interrelated themes dominated a single book in such a sustained fashion. (Seerdomin, the young priestess, the Redeemer, Endas, Spinnock, the amusingly divergent viewpoints of Tiserra & Nom, Nom (the young one) & Harlo (& the other kids), Murillo & Stony, Hood, Blend & Picker, Rake, Monkrat, Pust & the resident priestess (how the hell???), etc etc.)

5. Further to 4, one of my favourite exchanges is Scillara and Barathol at the end. Scillara's bemoaning her poor luck/decisions in matters of love and finding a true love/lover, when Barathol appears and says something like, "Y'know, I'm a blacksmith. If I have to forge chains to keep you, I will."
"Careful, Barathol. Chains can bind both ways."
"Can you live with that?"
"Give me no choice."
Awwwwww. Even the ever-present-in-the-series imagery of chains can be used to "sweet" effect from time to time.

6. My nomination for the BEST BATTLE THAT NEVER HAPPENED:
Iskaral Pust's mule vs Kruppe's mule.

7. Kruppe's narration. I loved it, although I completely understand how some could hate it. The sheer virtuosity of the writing is great, yet it's not virtuosity solely for its own sake, but a reflection and amplification of Kruppe's flambuoyant love of the richness of life and the world all around. I think it's some of SE's finest writing, and certainly his best sustained writing, although even for all that I'm glad it was only every second chapter, or it really would've been far too much.

8. Facetious observation: "argent" seems to be the new "gelid".

9. More seriously, even though the writing as a whole is great, I wish the whole series had a better editor(s). SE's ongoing and continual overuse (and often misuse) of "virtually" is extremely grating. (From memory: pg51 Bantam HB contains multiple examples.)

10. Rake! Words fail...

This post has been edited by Dredge: 10 December 2009 - 06:06 PM

[D'rek]

Dredge, on 10 December 2009 - 02:20 PM, said:

5. Further to 4, one of my favourite exchanges is Scillara and Barathol at the end. Scillara's bemoaning her poor luck/decisions in matters of love and finding a true love®, when Barathol appears and says something like, "Y'know, I'm a blacksmith. If I have to forge chains to keep you, I will."
"Careful, Barathol. Chains can bind both ways."
"Can you live with that?"
"Give me no choice."
Awwwwww. Even the ever-present-in-the-series imagery of chains can even be used to "sweet" effect from time to time.

I never thought of it like that, good catch/thought/idea/stuff!!


Oh and as per #3, the KCCM death thing, I don't think we ever got definitive proof that it was the same as the Dragnipur situation. Of course Fear's retelling in MT about that stuff is kinda distorted in a few other places so who really knows for sure...

[Abyss]

Dredge, on 10 December 2009 - 02:20 PM, said:

Confusions, queries, observations, opinions...

1. Great book; excellent thread.

2. Early on there's a description of a Mott Wood battle where Silanah is unleashed by Rake against Cowl. But, weren't the Crimson Guard (Cowl) and Moon's Spawn (Rake) allies at the time of Moot Wood? (Either I'm missing something obvious or I've got Cowl mixed up with someone else.)

She wasn't after Cowl, she was after the Malazans - Cowl was just in the wrong place and got pissed at her, all notwithstanding the alliance.

Quote

8. Facetious observation: "argent" seems to be the new "gelid".

It's all potsherds to me.

- Abyss, ...and btw, welcome Dredge.

[Dredge]

Hi Abyss,

It's nice to be here, although I've lurked a for while. Now I'm occassionally getting things right (I think) but sometimes horribly wrong too. Ack! Oh well, it's all a good workout for the brain.

I could've sworn it was Rake getting pissed at Cowl (as an enemy) and unleashing Silanah against him. Gah.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Dredge, on 10 December 2009 - 06:15 PM, said:

Hi Abyss,

It's nice to be here, although I've lurked a for while. Now I'm occassionally getting things right (I think) but sometimes horribly wrong too. Ack! Oh well, it's all a good workout for the brain.

I could've sworn it was Rake getting pissed at Cowl (as an enemy) and unleashing Silanah against him. Gah.

No, as I remember it, it was Silanah going after Malazans, but accidentally getting some of the Crimson Guard, or coming close to hitting some of them down in the woods. Cowl got pissed and injured her. She went back to Moon's Spawn, Rake realized what happened and set out trying to hunt down Cowl for a few days until his temper cooled, or someone like Brood convinced him to back off I think.

[blackzoid]

And a good thing is that this does not interfere with continuity in GoTM as
there was never any love lost between Rake and Cowl after that incident, even if they were allies.

When the Crimson Guard rescue Crokus in GOTM, Finger says:
"And don't worry, you're covered from the roofs, too. Cowl's up there, damn his snakeskin hide. But he's a powerful mage, anyway. Serrat was furious, I hear."

And when Rake has veered into his dragon and is about to attack the Galayn lord:
"He considered the message delivered by Serrat, courtesy of a foul mage he'd thought a thousand leagues away. Was the sorcery the work of these unwelcome intruders? He rumbled in frustration - he would deal with them later"

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 11 December 2009 - 10:29 AM

[Dredge]

Figured it was a brain-fart on my part, so thanks for clearing that up. Those linkages all the way back to GotM are pretty illuminating too. (Will now have to re-read GotM... yet again )

[Roldom]

just a quick thought, the jaghut corpse that Paran and Hedge find on the ice throne, is it definitly dead? isnt there some mention in one of the earlier books of the jaghut tombs where their body is placed safely as near to dead as possible and their spirit was allowed to wander? maybe Hoods deal with Paran was retake his previous body and the throne of ice?