[Abyss]

Curiously, this means the entire plotline of Paran considering breaking the sword post GotM and MoI is rendered null and void.

Unless as discussed, Hood's favour was for Paran to aid or just stay out of the whole plan Hood, Rake and St/Cot came up with.

Interesting - wondering did SE derail himself there or is there more to this...

- Abyss, trusts in SE, SE is good, SE is great...

[kalmavet7]

Abyss;358506 said:

Curiously, this means the entire plotline of Paran considering breaking the sword post GotM and MoI is rendered null and void.

Unless as discussed, Hood's favour was for Paran to aid or just stay out of the whole plan Hood, Rake and St/Cot came up with.

Interesting - wondering did SE derail himself there or is there more to this...

- Abyss, trusts in SE, SE is good, SE is great...

Interesting...so what does Hood gain from all this if the favor is either Paran staying out of the way or getting his army in? Just a respite from his role w/ Death? he was getting that by dying. I still think it has to do w/ Hood seeking a new role, something Paran could aid with that would certainly entail a massive favor.

I think an important question is did Hood know they were breaking the sword? I'm assuming he did, but correct me if i'm wrong. This then means he gets practically nothing out of his big favor if it involves the sword, but has significant ramifications for the favor involving his new role. Paran as you mentioned already wanted to break it. he would be willing accomplice to the whole plan w/o Hood needing to call in any special favors.

but assuming Hood knew they'd break the sword, then he knew he'd also be released from it. If his death vacated the throne of Death, then his return leaves him free to assume a new position, and a favor from the MotD makes more sense in this capacity.

In SE we trust, indeed.

[Abyss]

We see fairly clearly that Hood abdicates his position.

What is not clear is whether he is 'dead', given that Rake, Vorcan, Envy and Spite all more or less confirm the chained souls that survived the battle in Dragnipur are going to show up somewhere. Hood was killed by Dragnipur, after all, same as Draconus, and no one doubts he's coming back. Also, Draconus may be powerful enuf to fix himself a new body but does that apply to everyone? Ie: how does this play out for Apsalara? Does she need to find a new body to possess?

Take the speculation one farther - Crockus, once a theif, then an assassin, now possibly a theif again given his name change, if going looking for Apsalar, who may, by dint of name, end up possessed by Crockus' patron god (per GotM).

- Abyss, ...and the speculation runs wild....!

[kalmavet7]

Abyss;358609 said:

We see fairly clearly that Hood abdicates his position.

What is not clear is whether he is 'dead', given that Rake, Vorcan, Envy and Spite all more or less confirm the chained souls that survived the battle in Dragnipur are going to show up somewhere. Hood was killed by Dragnipur, after all, same as Draconus, and no one doubts he's coming back. Also, Draconus may be powerful enuf to fix himself a new body but does that apply to everyone? Ie: how does this play out for Apsalara? Does she need to find a new body to possess?

Take the speculation one farther - Crockus, once a their, then an assassin, now possibly a theif again given his name change, if going looking for Apsalar, who may, by dint of name, end up possessed by Crockus' patron god (per GotM).

- Abyss, ...and the speculation runs wild....!

i took draconus re-appearing meaning that at the very least characters of comparable power who were slain by the sword would be back. Lots of characters knew this so I assume Hood did too. His part of the bargain would have to involve restoration to some new position, i think.

And what about the part w/ Apsalara sorta escaping beforehand. I can't remember exactly what happened and my book is being borrowed. Would her breaking the chains make her an exception of sorts?

i love the idea that wayward crokus goes looking for apsalar only to find apsalara instead. the thief vs assassin play there would be great. seems like a classic SE thing to do.

[Leanoric]

I too am suspecting that Hood's favour from Paran had something to do with the events in TtH. Here is a quick summary of the possibilities:

a) Hood was tired of being Lord of Death and wanted to go back to just wandering around like he did in his youth when he was Death Wanderer.
Hood was tired of being Lord of Death and wanted a new house or position in one (ice, justice, whatever)
c) The deal was a gateway into Dragnipur for the armies of the dead. The map that Cartographer drew is similar to drawing a new card, perhaps, and that might require at least sanctioning if not the active participation of the Master of the Deck. After all, if Hood and his armies could just wander into Dragnipur any time they liked, why not send some strong dead people to help pull the cart? And why not harvest the souls of those that fell in Dragnipur? I like the idea that Hood couldn't just have wandered in at any time. The same gateway allowed in both the dead and Gruntle and the TTG
d) It was nothing to do with anything. We'll find it out later.
e) He wants a wife

So... those are the options.

[Use Of Weapons]

I like C. We know that the creation of new Houses of the Deck and their associated cards doesn't require the participation of the Master of the Deck, but their acceptance does require his blessing (from how the House of Chains arrived on the scene, precipitating the requirement for a Master, which role Paran then accepted). So, as Hood's been around for a long time and knows how it all hangs together, he may well have preempted the requirement for blessing by getting Paran's agreement first, and then creating the new card/House as an already-active power in the world.

[eekwibble]

I like E. :eek: No! Not that E. The e. up there. :angel:

[Abyss]

Leanoric;359039 said:

...
c) The deal was a gateway into Dragnipur for the armies of the dead. The map that Cartographer drew is similar to drawing a new card, perhaps, and that might require at least sanctioning if not the active participation of the Master of the Deck. After all, if Hood and his armies could just wander into Dragnipur any time they liked, why not send some strong dead people to help pull the cart? And why not harvest the souls of those that fell in Dragnipur? I like the idea that Hood couldn't just have wandered in at any time. The same gateway allowed in both the dead and Gruntle and the TTG
...

This makes sense and i like the link to Cartographer. It certainly seemed like Hood was powerful enuf to bring his armies on his own, and Ditch and Apsalara both seemed to access their warrens, albeit towards the end when Dragnipur was already weakening.

Anyrate, the point of the plan was to end the wagon/gate/sword situation and just adding people to pull it wouldn't have done that.

- Abyss, ...workin' onna chain gaaaaaang....

[caladanbrood]

I assumed as soon as I read it that the favour was definitely to do with getting the armies and TTG wagon into the sword. Paran is perfectly placed, being able to draw a card to anywhere, and also being the only person to be inside Dragnipur before. I don't really think there is any other option.

[kalmavet7]

caladanbrood;359170 said:

I assumed as soon as I read it that the favour was definitely to do with getting the armies and TTG wagon into the sword. Paran is perfectly placed, being able to draw a card to anywhere, and also being the only person to be inside Dragnipur before. I don't really think there is any other option.

It all fits w/ Cartographer's cardish thing, Paran's abilities and whatnot, and i've sorta been playing devil's advocate about this theory this entire thread, but i still wonder what's in it for Hood? The alliance could have simply enlisted Paran's involvement knowing that he wants to destroy the sword too. I don't think it requires Hood's special favor. Paran's involvement, yes. Special favor, maybe. ???

It just seems awfully gracious of Hood not to use the favor for something more....selfish. While he has had some kind-hearted moments, it would still seem out of character to call in the favor for something that so many higher powers wanted to do anyway. Again, the plan was to break the sword not add more cold bodies to the pulling (as I think Abyss said above) so Hood knew he'd be getting back out. If I'm Hood and Paran owes me a big favor I'm using it in capacity w/ Paran's more important role--MotD, and I using it for something that I specifically want, not something that several of us gods/ascendants want. He'll probably agree to that w/o my special favor.

I'm not saying the armies into the sword couldn't be the favor, but i question it still.

[Illuyankas]

Hey, saving the Gate of Darkness from the approaching chaos effectively saved himself. The fact doing so saved everyone else is just gravy.

[kalmavet7]

Illuyankas;359255 said:

Hey, saving the Gate of Darkness from the approaching chaos effectively saved himself. The fact doing so saved everyone else is just gravy.

Right, but this just goes along w/ what i'm saying. Everyone has a vested interested, so Hood calling in a special favor is atrocious bargaining. Maybe he's changed into such a nice little jaghut that he doesn't care. If so, then sign me up for the "Hood builds a tower with a nice view of the end of the CG" theory, which btw would be hilarious. That would be a great final scene. Hood's thoughts on the end over a cup of tea from his exquisite tower.

[Urb]

BEST KALLOR MOMENT IN THE BOOK: Kallor feeling up Mother Dark. Because killing that dragon was no big deal.

[caladanbrood]

kalmavet7;359253 said:

It all fits w/ Cartographer's cardish thing, Paran's abilities and whatnot, and i've sorta been playing devil's advocate about this theory this entire thread, but i still wonder what's in it for Hood? The alliance could have simply enlisted Paran's involvement knowing that he wants to destroy the sword too. I don't think it requires Hood's special favor. Paran's involvement, yes. Special favor, maybe. ???

It just seems awfully gracious of Hood not to use the favor for something more....selfish. While he has had some kind-hearted moments, it would still seem out of character to call in the favor for something that so many higher powers wanted to do anyway. Again, the plan was to break the sword not add more cold bodies to the pulling (as I think Abyss said above) so Hood knew he'd be getting back out. If I'm Hood and Paran owes me a big favor I'm using it in capacity w/ Paran's more important role--MotD, and I using it for something that I specifically want, not something that several of us gods/ascendants want. He'll probably agree to that w/o my special favor.

I'm not saying the armies into the sword couldn't be the favor, but i question it still.

Well if they hadn't got the armies in, they wouldn't have been able to do their shiznay... so it was a vital part of the plan. That's enough of a reason for him to need the favour, I would think.

[kalmavet7]

caladanbrood;360029 said:

Well if they hadn't got the armies in, they wouldn't have been able to do their shiznay... so it was a vital part of the plan. That's enough of a reason for him to need the favour, I would think.

right right but my point is they ALL need that, not just Hood. Paran wants the sword destroyed too for that matter. There's no reason for Hood to waste HIS favor on something they ALL want. I'm thinking more in terms of negotiation strategy and bargaining leverage. I'm just saying it'd be awfully nice of Hood to use his bargain on it and not for something related to him abdicating his role w/ Death to assume a new role. The sword could be it, but i like to think Hood is more savvy than that :cool:

[Votan]

What was up with the bell in K'rul's bar tolling at the end, despite the bell not actually being up there anymore?

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Votan;360389 said:

What was up with the bell in K'rul's bar tolling at the end, despite the bell not actually being up there anymore?

Maaaaaaagic.

[Votan]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;360401 said:

Maaaaaaagic.

Well, yeah. Who did it though, and what did it signify?

[Abyss]

I took that as Krul mourning the death of Rake. It's been hinted, tho never clearly shown, that Rake and Krul were allied at some point.

- Abyss, for whom the bell tolls....

[Ammanas]

Abyss;360600 said:

I took that as Krul mourning the death of Rake. It's been hinted, tho never clearly shown, that Rake and Krul were allied at some point.

- Abyss, for whom the bell tolls....

True, they seemed quite polite to each other in GoTM. Rake even promised to avoid damaging the new temple while fighting the Galayn. Maybe K'rul has some kind of empathy for Rake carrying Dragnipur for who the hell knows how many centuries. Kallor cursed Nightchill with being torn apart and K'rul with fading into obscurity. I don't remember what curse he slapped on Draconus but maybe he came to Darujhistan to get Dragnipur before it could be destroyed.

My theory is, Kallor does NOT want Draconus loose in the world. We saw how scared he was of the Nightchill part of Silverfox.

I wonder if Draconus will be like K'rul was in MoI--"a limited manifestation"