[Abyss]

Pre-possession, he killed Fear. And not in a nice way.
Clip is a dick.


- Abyss, has nicer ways of killing peoples....

[Banana]

I can't believe no one's asked the crucial questions.

Like why did Humble Measure want to kill the Malazans? If that was revealed then I totally missed it.

Also, who is the God that Karsa's going to have to kill?

And what message is Toc taking to the gods of war?

agh if only the two final books were already written!

[Illuyankas]

Humble Measure's motivations for killing the BBs were in his first POV.

[Banana]

Quote

Humble Measure's motivations for killing the BBs were in his first POV.

I thought that just showed that he hated Malazans. There were a lot of Malazans in the city why did he pick the BB's specifically?

[Illuyankas]

Ex-Bridgeburners? Most dangerous army the Malazans had? Loose in his city? [linet]With MY reputation?[/linet]

[Abyss]

Possibly, but it does seem that there is more going on there - Barathol and Mallet discussed the Malazan Embassy increasing its guard contingent, then we have the pickled Seguleh and the other casks Bluepearl found.

In any eevnt, with Picker's new role as Karsa's... guide? herald? contact? and link to the War gods and Fisher, i doubt we've seen the last of the surviving Bridgeburners.

As an aside, the assassin's attack on Krul's Bar was an amazing sequence. Blend especially was amazing.

Also, Spindle was a nice addition to the Redeemer plotline.

- Abyss, was dissappointed Monkrat didn't turn out to be Gryllen or Whitemane.

[Leanoric]

Just finished the book, and I too subscribe to the theory that there is more to Humble Measure's motives than just disliking Malazans. I think he was playing a much deeper game my reasons:

- There was much reference, by Seba Krafar for instance, that there was something incredibly dangerous about Humble Measure. Admittedly, Seba is no Rallick or Kalam or Vorcam but he *is* Head of the Assassins, and if he thinks Humble Measure is not to be messed with, then I guess we should believe it.

- When Fisher buys off the contract on the Malazans, he tells Seba that if he knew the reason behind Humble Measure's actions then he "would not be so eager to take his coin, no matter how much he offered" (page 616). So, clearly more than just a dislike for Malazans

- The Darujhistan storyline is clearly not over. Karsa is told not to leave, the Tyrant has not yet arrived although Baruk says people in the city are working to awaken one, unexplained pickled Segulah in K'ruls belfry, that whole unexplained thing where Baruk sets his demon to guard/watch that ghost Hinter.

I just reread the first scene with Humble Measure (page 75) and actually it does seem that hatred of the Malazans is his reasoning, more specifically:

Quote

Darujhistan would not fall to the Malazan Empire - he had found the means to ensure that. To ensure, indeed, that no foreign power could ever threaten the city he now called home, ever again. (TtH Hbk, pg 76)

followed closely by:

Quote

His thoughts were on such matters even during the day, and this day in particular, when his most loyal servant - the only man who knew of the secret crypts and, indeed, of Humble Measure's master plan - entered the office.... (page 77)

And finished off by Kruppe's end of chapter summary:

Quote

In another part of Darujhistan, a merchant of iron dispatched yet another message to the Master of the Assassins' Guild, then retired to his secret library to poer once more over ancient, fraught literature. (page 91)

So, HM's plan is bigger than just wanting to get rid of the Malazans in K'ruls bar. He wants to stop *anyone* ever invading again. He has secret crypts, presumably with dead bodies inside. He is reading ancient scrolls. And he has a grand, master plan that would make even the Assassins' Guild unwilling to take his money. Oh, and Baruk says people in the city are trying to awaken a Tyrant. I think we can put two and two together here. Maybe killing the Malazans was part of the spilling of blood that seems to be needed to raise/summon such a being.

[Dane]

Maybe the reason why HM wants to kill them is that theyre owning k'ruls, what about that ghost talking tho blues about whats downunder burried? might be the tyrant? or am i wrong?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Twist it round a bit. I think his ultimate aim is to stop Malazans, or any other agent, from threatening his city. No hint of anything greater. I think it is the method of achieving this that he's pursuing that's getting all oblique scary references.

[Abyss]

@Lea' - Nicely summarized. Have rep.

The pickled bodies lead me to one overiding and inevitable conclusion...

T'lan Seguleh!!!!


...who smell like pickles, but we won't dwell on that given the otherwise coolishness of a bunch of undead Seguleh running around.

- Abyss, has concluded the Tyrant in question is Mrs. Whyte....

[stejen]

Does HM even control him self anymore?
We hear about the special place where he plots and how he does not need to sleep when he is there.
So maybe he started out just wanting to keep the city safe from malazan
but while looking for a way to do that he got take over or manupulated
by what ever force that helps ward against people attemps at finding him in his secret cave.
So maybe the really bad tyrant is buried below the city and HM just happened to dig deep enough to come under his influents.

- Stejen, stealing from abyss since like yesterday

[Abyss]

stejen;357515 said:

...So maybe he started out just wanting to keep the city safe from malazan...in his secret cave.
So maybe the really bad tyrant is buried below the city and HM just happened to dig deep enough to come under his influents.

Or maybe HM is using an unknown Azath House and the Tyrant is imprisoned there.... that would explain the no sleep thing.

Quote

- Stejen, stealing from abyss since like yesterday

- Abyss, notes imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and i expect the Paypal payment by tomorrow...

[Cougar]

Can paypal transfer brains?

Sorry, BRAINZzzz

[Abyss]

No, that's PainPal.


- Abyss, ...what?

[Illuyankas]

BrainPal?

[HoosierDaddy]

Abyss;357584 said:

Or maybe HM is using an unknown Azath House and the Tyrant is imprisoned there.... that would explain the no sleep thing.




- Abyss, notes imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and i expect the Paypal payment by tomorrow...

Two azath's in Darujhistan? Good lord that would make for a hell of a lot of hoary ascendants under the ground.

I think he put a contract out on the BB's for a couple reasons. One, he wanted revenge against that vaunted company for waht had happened to his father. Two, the BB's were a force to be reckoned with, had excellent intelligence sources, and were masters at political assasinations. Trying to resurrect a tyrant could prick up the ears of intelligent listeners.

If the Tyrant is able to command both the Seguleh and the T'orrud Cabal then he is one powerful, dominating entity. If the Tyrant(s) is resurrected the city would no longber be in danger from a foreign power. They'd be ruled by a local power.

By the way, those crypts (of the Tyrants I would logically deduce) have to be where he got the "ancient, fraught literature." Why is the literature full of distress if it is an instruction manual to resurrection? Why would Humble "pour" over something that just details how to do it, unless the act of wakening a Tyrant is a massive, disgusting ritual?

[Cutt3r]

Ammanas;354512 said:

Yeah, I agree with most of that. Cept, I was hoping for a Traveller/Kallor clash. It was too obvious Trav and Karsa had become friends.

Biggest disappointments--
1) that we didn't get more ST and less Pust.
2) we didn't get an answer to what Paran promised Hood unless it was to die and Hood was too scared to ask Rake or something.
3) the Tyrant didn't actually appear
4) that the Hounds didn't eat Draconus daughters


Biggest surprise--yes, Malazan fans, Hounds of Light do exist and there are a fuckload of em.

I'm beginning to like Cot more and more.

2. I think he gave up the answer, but in a very indirect way. I think that Hood may want a new card (house of justice for instance) or maybe Hood wants a House of Ice. I'm pretty sure it will be within Paran's ability.

[kalmavet7]

Cutt3r;358063 said:

2. I think he gave up the answer, but in a very indirect way. I think that Hood may want a new card (house of justice for instance) or maybe Hood wants a House of Ice. I'm pretty sure it will be within Paran's ability.

Yup, i think this too. He clearly wants to be done w/ his role concerning death. Either justice or ice could fit but i prefer the connection with ice as his body was sitting on the throne of Omtose Ph. Wonder what happened to it anyway? Would Ice be a hold tho as opposed to a House? Perhaps Paran switching that (if he can) would be part of the bargain.

others have suggested that paran's favor was connected to getting Hood's army into the sword. this could work too, tho personally I wonder why SE didn't give us a glimpse of this happening if it is the case. We don't know if the dead could wander from realm to realm and into the sword (under normal circumstances why would they?), making Paran's little talent less necessary (ie--it only applies to the living, the dead can do what they want). But he was the Wanderer in the Sword, so maybe he did Hood a favor in that capacity. My other problem with theory is I was always under the impression that Hood's favor would be just for Hood. Getting his army in the sword benefited Rake, Hood, ST, etc--all the conspirators. This would seem to make Hood a poor bargainer. With all of those powers having vested interest in getting the army into the sword, I don't think it should require Hood to call in a special favor, which seems like a wholly individual request.

[HoosierDaddy]

kalmavet7;358078 said:

Yup, i think this too. He clearly wants to be done w/ his role concerning death. Either justice or ice could fit but i prefer the connection with ice as his body was sitting on the throne of Omtose Ph. Wonder what happened to it anyway? Would Ice be a hold tho as opposed to a House? Perhaps Paran switching that (if he can) would be part of the bargain.

others have suggested that paran's favor was connected to getting Hood's army into the sword. this could work too, tho personally I wonder why SE didn't give us a glimpse of this happening if it is the case. We don't know if the dead could wander from realm to realm and into the sword (under normal circumstances why would they?), making Paran's little talent less necessary (ie--it only applies to the living, the dead can do what they want). But he was the Wanderer in the Sword, so maybe he did Hood a favor in that capacity. My other problem with theory is I was always under the impression that Hood's favor would be just for Hood. Getting his army in the sword benefited Rake, Hood, ST, etc--all the conspirators. This would seem to make Hood a poor bargainer. With all of those powers having vested interest in getting the army into the sword, I don't think it should require Hood to call in a special favor, which seems like a wholly individual request.

We never knew what Hood asked for, only that it shocked/surprised Paran. The Lord of Death asking a favor into dragnipur would, I assume, shock the MotD, especially its ramifications on the Deck itself. Further, I imagine we will have Paran's p.o.v. from the other end in DoD just like things that happened in DG-MOI.

[kalmavet7]

yeah there's simply too much we don't know about their conversation, the nature of the sword, and the nature of the dead wandering the realms.

Hood shocking Paran doesn't really prove anything though. He could just easily have said, "i'm out as king of death, make me a card for ice," which would be just as shocking if not moreso. plus it has been worded as if Hood asked the favor so Hood himself could enter the sword, which of course was for his army (common knowledge i'm sure, just pointing it out for clarification). This might not have the same ramifications for the deck, though perhaps if the dead are also restored somehow (unlikely?) then it might. Hood was going into sword as part of the plan w/ Rake, ST, etc, regardless of Paran's involvement. Changing his role would entirely would absolutely shake up the Deck.

Additionally Paran's role as J'R hasn't made anywhere near the same amount of impact as his role as MotD. Any explanation for Hood shocking Paran should logically start with his most prominent role, first and foremost.

I'm certainly looking forward to Paran's take on the events in TtH, so hopefully we'll get a definitive answer there.

i'm not saying hood's favor couldn't be the army entering the sword, it's certainly possible. i just like the alternative theory better. Neither would surprise me.