[Urb]

There was a discussion about this before. I pulled out some quotes from the Bonehunters, and Braven Tooth said Phaed was Lady Envy's daugter. There are no direct quotes that say Nimander was Lady Envy's son, but we know that he was Phaed's brother. And both are spawn of Rake. The thing is, Lady Envy had a fling with Nimander in order to make Rake jealous, and that's why I can't really see Nimander being Lady Envy's son. Of course, I could be wrong. It's all speculation as long as the draconean family tree isn't backed up by SE himself.

[booyaa]

Well, considering the Rud Ellale storyline in Reaper's Gale I'm inclined to believe that Nimander is soultaken. Rud had only Menadore as the Draconian parent and he was a soultaken Elient.

[Agraba]

Maybe it's like a dominant gene, meaning if only one of your parents are soletaken then you have a 1/2 chance but if both parents are, you have a 3/4 chance of being so.

You see, each man consists of bags, and in each bag there are wallets, and in each wallets there are notes........

[Aptorian]

Seeing as drinking blood makes you soletaken, then any union that yields a child from a soletaken or pure blood draconean, should be, at least, a soletaken draconean.

[booyaa]

Hmm, i like this discussion. But now I want to know how the T'lan bonecaster Othil ended up as a dragon soletaken too. Did she run up and snatch a couple of drops of Tiam too. Might be the case, seeing as Paran just TOUCHED the dead hound and now he can almost veer when fighting demons and ascendants.

[Aptorian]

Olar Ethil is not only listed as one of the Elder Gods on the draconean tree, she's also called the first soletaken, twin of Tiam.

So it's hard to know. It doesn't really make sense that an Elder God could be a T'lan Imass.

[Morgoth]

Aptorian;351749 said:

Olar Ethil is not only listed as one of the Elder Gods on the draconean tree, she's also called the first soletaken, twin of Tiam.

So it's hard to know. It doesn't really make sense that an Elder God could be a T'lan Imass.

what if it's a dragon with an Imass soletaken form? oooo, the intrigue..

anyways, Spite is a draconean soletaken, and I can't see Envy having survived against spite for so long if she wasn't one herself. So, both of Nimander's parents are soletaken eleint. Now this coupled with the quote about awakening tiams blood within him, and the facts regarding Udinaas' son, I don't think there can be any doubt that Nimander can veer into a dragon if he so choses.

What is a more interesting question, is how that would change him.

[Raraku]

The whole First soletaken bugs me a bit since i read TTH cause it seems like Rake was the first Andii and the first Tiste to drink Tiams blood as we see in the scene where he walks upto Mother Dark with Endest Silann and Mother Dark senses the blood of Tiam within Rake.
Possibly even before that there were Elder Gods (Krull, Draconus, etc.) who were alsready soletaken.
So Olar Ethil is what? I saw a thread discussing this but cant find it anymore. Maybe an expression of Tiam (undead) which came after Rake killed her. Or maybe an Elder God who chose to become Imass and be bound by the Ritual of Tellan. Or maybe an Eleint who could shape shift into an Imass.

[Cougar]

Morgoth: to reiterate my point

We don't know Envy is defintiely Nimanders mum, we only have the Draconean family tree as dubious evidence, having only a single soletaken parent doesn't always mean you are yourself. even Envy surely wouldn't get it on with one of her kids?!!

I don't think L'oric is soletaken is he. This discussion has been had before and there is no conclusive proof that I can remember how Dragon genes are passed (it could be maternal or depend on how deeply various parents drank or other possibilities)

As I said, I'm inclined to believe Nimander could veer but I wouldn't take it as a given at all.

[Morgoth]

Cougar;351786 said:

Morgoth: to reiterate my point

We don't know Envy is defintiely Nimanders mum, we only have the Draconean family tree as dubious evidence, having only a single soletaken parent doesn't always mean you are yourself. even Envy surely wouldn't get it on with one of her kids?!!

I don't think L'oric is soletaken is he. This discussion has been had before and there is no conclusive proof that I can remember how Dragon genes are passed (it could be maternal or depend on how deeply various parents drank or other possibilities)

As I said, I'm inclined to believe Nimander could veer but I wouldn't take it as a given at all.

No that is true. I must've completly skipped your posts altogether, my appologies. Envy might indeed not be Nimander's mum, especially perhaps as it is not mentioned any signs of them all being half breeds, but race is a difficult thing in the malazan world to begin with, so I dunno. I personaly do not think there's any question of Nimander having latent draconean blood in his veins. What Mother Darks tells him within Kurald Galain, and the quote mentioned above makes it quite clear in my mind.

[tiam]

Rud elalle is soletaken because Menandore mde Udinaas ride the blood of the wyval. That way both parents have draconic blood. Also theres a quote somewhere where it states that if the mother Soletaken then the child will be. I admit 2 contradictory points

[Cougar]

OK I'm definitely not saying he doesn't have latent draconic blood, that is a stone cold fact. I also agree with tiam in that Rud Ellale is a Dragon because both his parents have Draconic genetic material of some type. However, we've discussed this a lot in the past and I don't remember a definite quote on draconean mum= soletaken child.

If anyone can find the quote I'd love to see it cos' it would really settle it for us.

[Obdigore]

There is no quote saying that dagonwimminz = dragon kidz.

It was an assumption based on the Draconian family tree, which if correct, has a few inconsistancies, but we don't know enough about the family tree to get it right.

There could be some extremely complex rules regarding if/how someone is born soletaken. Or it could be just if SE needs/wants them to be.

[Tiger_sword]

I believe that if we had a POV of Rake say a few millenia ago it would mirror Nimander's almost exactly but who can say what he was thinking in TtH, we haven't had may POV's from extremely long lived characters and when we do they tend to focus on futility, it would have been nice but at the same time Rake's POV may have shattered his godlike facade. I also reckon that if we hadn't had a POV of Nimander but say his other companions then we would all be in love with him! He has provided us with a link between a rake-like character and your average run-of-the-mill few thousand year old character! Personally I really enjoyed being inside him as he "came of age" becoming the strong leader etc. As for him being able to veer... I think I would leen towards him being able to but there is only one person who can tell us for sure!

[L'oric]

Morgoth;351796 said:

No that is true. I must've completly skipped your posts altogether, my appologies. Envy might indeed not be Nimander's mum, especially perhaps as it is not mentioned any signs of them all being half breeds, but race is a difficult thing in the malazan world to begin with, so I dunno. I personaly do not think there's any question of Nimander having latent draconean blood in his veins. What Mother Darks tells him within Kurald Galain, and the quote mentioned above makes it quite clear in my mind.

TTH spoiler

Spoiler

I thought the end of TtH pretty much sums up Nimander's ability to take in Tiam's blood and assume a soletaken form. He just has to want to do it.

[Morgoth]

L said:

TTH spoiler

Spoiler

I thought the end of TtH pretty much sums up Nimander's ability to take in Tiam's blood and assume a soletaken form. He just has to want to do it.

yeah, that's one of the quotes I'm refering to. It's mentioned earlier in the thread

[Tremolo]

I think Nimander is afraid to let the Eleint inside of him lose. We have heard before that dragons are cold hearted creatures who care nothing for others. Nimander worries that he cannot be both the good and caring leader he wants to be while he gets more acquainted with his draconic side.

[Sinisdar Toste]

we have even heard from korlat that she is slightly frightened by the transformation of her personality when she veers

[ShadowOwl]

Cougar;351970 said:

OK I'm definitely not saying he doesn't have latent draconic blood, that is a stone cold fact. I also agree with tiam in that Rud Ellale is a Dragon because both his parents have Draconic genetic material of some type. However, we've discussed this a lot in the past and I don't remember a definite quote on draconean mum= soletaken child.

If anyone can find the quote I'd love to see it cos' it would really settle it for us.

In RG, Onrack says, after seeing Rud Elalle and Menandore, that they share blood, and "if there is Eleint blood in the mother, then so too in the son." Trull asks, "Soletaken?" and Onrack say "Yes".