[Abalieno]

Since I'm not getting answers on the other forums, I'll ask here. Consider that I read only to the end of DG and don't want to read spoilers from the books ahead, but I want to know if things are going to be clarified. And if in a satisfying, consistent way.

When around page 200 Fiddler realizes on his own that Shadowthrone is Kellanved, suddenly a part of GotM started to make sense. In that first book it was never clearly explained what the hell they wanted to do with Sorry's possession, and why they gave up and thought the plan was flawed.

Also the part on the boat where Paran talks to Topper is confusing. Topper says that the real menace was about Sorry trying to take over the Bridgeburners and use them, along with Dujek, to rise a rebellion. So it made sense, for the Empress, to outlaw Dujek, try to destroy the Bridgeburners and send Lorn to go to the core of the threat (Sorry). It was implied that it was Shadowthrone, taking the lead of his old army, that menace. So Laseen would want scattering and destroying it, same as the other "purges" to maintain her power.

But now everything is negated by the revelations in the last part of the book. Dujek has always been loyal to the empress as everything was planned to disguise the Malazan army and join forces against the Pannion domin.

All that negates the previous smooth explanation. The destruction of the whole army at Pale isn't justified, as it isn't justified all that the High Mage does. Laseen admits it wasn't her idea, and yet she does nothing against the High Mage? And what was Shadowthrone's plan with Sorry?

And then, why when Kalam decides to not kill Laseen Shadowthrone is so happy to grant wishes to everyone? His identity was discovered, he was betrayed, and yet he's so well disposed toward everyone.

[ShadowOwl]

"...suddenly a part of GotM started to make sense." This is in essence, the magic of these books. The more you read, the more you understand and that is a lot of the fun and drives the great discussions and speculation in the book forums.
I personally found that a lot of "lights" came on as I read Memories of Ice. Reading that book, which is next anyway, will answer a lot for you, but as always with SE, will also set up a whole new set of questions.

[End of Disc One]

I understand a lot of your enlightenments and confusions. Memories of Ice does shed some light on these subjects; I hope it's enough light to answer your questions but I can't be sure.

[Biggles]

I agree. It'll all come together with MoI.

[Dolorous Menhir]

This is a confusing issue, and the best explanation would involve spoilers from MoI, but not serious ones. I'll try not to include any here.

First of all, Sorry and Onearm's Host being outlawed are two separate issues. Outlawing Dujek was not part of any plan to stop Sorry.

Sorry's plan is not clear. Now that you know who Shadowthrone and Cotillion really are, you can get a better understanding of what was going on. That was the moment that sold me on this series, I never saw it coming. The best thing is, if you go back and read GotM it's packed with really obvious clues to their identity. It all but tells you at least once, but it's just not something you piece together the first time round, or at least I didn't.

It seems that Sorry's mission was to somehow get close to Laseen, assassinate her, and possibly take her place as Empress. The most obvious motive is revenge for Laseen's betrayal, but that doesn't seem to the real reason. The method is also unclear. I do not believe that Sorry intended to somehow seize control of the Host and use it as a blunt instrument to overthrow Laseen.

Anyway, it's not relevant. The plan was abandoned along with Cotillion's possession. Shadowthrone probably had another motive for this, but it's not clear to me.

Adjunct Lorn was sent to find the agent of Shadow (Sorry) that the Empire knew had survived the Hound attack two years before. Keeping Dujek under control was not her job, it was Tayschrenn's.

As for the outlawing of Dujek - this is a clever bit of realpolitik. The Malazans need to ally with their enemies in order to fight a greater threat. In order to do so, they create the fiction that their army in the region has rebelled and is no longer under imperial control. I believe some of the strife between Tayschrenn and Dujek was a set-up for this break, creating a history of tension to make the outlawing believable.

But the losses at Pale are too serious to be explained by that. I think the Malazan war aims changed over time. At the time of the Sorcery Enfilade, the objective was to take out Rake and seize Pale, regardless of the cost. So the losses involved in Tayschrenn's plan are acceptable to Laseen.

The natural next step in that plan was to take Darujhistan, which failed. Then the more serious threat emerged, which meant the strategy had to change to "let's make friends with the locals and ally against the external threat". What happened at Pale doesn't make any sense when you think about the aims of that strategy, but that wasn't what they were working under at the time. That's the best explanation I have for that.

As for what was going on with the Bridgeburners specifically, a fuller explanation comes in MoI. Exactly what is going on between Laseen and Shadowthrone is also fleshed out a bit, but it's not really clear even then. Are they enemies or allies? I'm not sure.

The basic thing here is that the stories become a bit fudged. As you've already seen, the story as you understood it in GotM has been undermined. Some of that can be explained, and I've tried to do it above, but the main point is that between the first and third books there is a switch in character motivations and behaviour that just doesn't make any real sense. There's not really any way round it, but it's not a series-killer. It actually has surprisingly little effect on the aspects of the story that we follow.

[Trull's son]

just a quick look at darujhistan for a second, did the bridgeburners leave all the explosives in the city? (sorry if this is a spoiler for any1, but it seems as though all involved have read GotM)

[Dolorous Menhir]

The mines in the street...that's a really good question. They must have?

You don't have to worry about putting GotM spoilers in this forum, you're free to put in any material up to and including DG.

[Imperial Historian]

The BB's dug up the explosives in darujhistan streets, some of which were given to fiddler, these are the munitions the trygalle trade guild hands over to him in tremelor towards the end of DhG, with the cryptic message from the blue city's streets.

[Abalieno]

Dolorous Menhir;350499 said:

Sorry's plan is not clear. Now that you know who Shadowthrone and Cotillion really are, you can get a better understanding of what was going on. That was the moment that sold me on this series, I never saw it coming. The best thing is, if you go back and read GotM it's packed with really obvious clues to their identity. It all but tells you at least once, but it's just not something you piece together the first time round, or at least I didn't.

Yeah, I loved the revelation too, especially because it was so obvious and yet I didn't even remotely think about it. I also loved how Fiddler guesses it on his own. Just by thinking.

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It seems that Sorry's mission was to somehow get close to Laseen, assassinate her, and possibly take her place as Empress. The most obvious motive is revenge for Laseen's betrayal, but that doesn't seem to the real reason. The method is also unclear. I do not believe that Sorry intended to somehow seize control of the Host and use it as a blunt instrument to overthrow Laseen.

Not coherent. It seems Shadowthrone can go where he wants. If he wanted a direct confrontation with Laseen he wouldn't have sent Sorry on another continent. It was obvious that Shadowthrone wanted something *in Genabackis*. And it makes sense to believe he's "jealous" of Laseen using his own stuff, his army. As he seems possessive and nostalgic in various other parts. Throughout the book(s) is repeated how the conflict is about a huge part of the army being faithful to Kellanved. The faithfulness and "old guard" are big themes in both books.

It makes sense to believe that Shadowthrone was there to try to get control of that part of the army (Dujek) that most likely was still more faithful to the emperor than Laseen. So in Genabackis.

And not only this is logic speculation, but it's exactly what Topper says to Paran. He says explicitly that Sorry was there to influence Dujek. Every other explanation needs also to include what Topper is saying there.

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Adjunct Lorn was sent to find the agent of Shadow (Sorry) that the Empire knew had survived the Hound attack two years before. Keeping Dujek under control was not her job, it was Tayschrenn's.

Unnecessary.

Theory 1 wants Dujek under the control of Sorry. So Adjunct Lorn was there for Sorry, and consequently break the link to Dujek. Both the High Mage and Lorn were on the same problem, just on two different ends (one on Dujek, the other on Sorry).

Theory 2 wants Dujek ever loyal to Laseen, as revealed in DG. So there was NO REASON to wipe the majority of the army. It's unmotivated suicide. Dujek presents NO PROBLEM, so no reason to keep him down.

For the High Mage's plot to make sense, you need a reason to *doubt of Dujek*. The only reason to doubt of Dujek is about his loyalty to Kallenved, so again the possibility that he would be influenced by Sorry.

And if Laseen hoped to keep Dujek loyal, then she wouldn't let all his men die for no reason. That's a perfect way to obtain the opposite result and have Dujek decide for betrayal.

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But the losses at Pale are too serious to be explained by that. I think the Malazan war aims changed over time. At the time of the Sorcery Enfilade, the objective was to take out Rake and seize Pale, regardless of the cost. So the losses involved in Tayschrenn's plan are acceptable to Laseen.

Still inconsistent. Dujek was always loyal to Laseen. If Laseen CARED to keep him faithful, she wouldn't let the army being slaughtered so that Dujek may actually start thinking of betraying her.

Come on. Dujek is a cool guy. Do you REALLY believe that he accepts to sacrifice all his man so that some trivial political trick can be believable? Dujek in the book is passed as one of the best leaders.

Good leaders don't send all their men to die without blinking. Nor those man sit back rolling their thumbs while they are getting slaughtered. Those men trust Dujek. That trust OBLIGES Dujek to either go really versus Laseen to vindicate the losses.

Or? I don't know. There isn't another explanation that I can think that justifies what happened.

Or, when realized that Dujek is with the empress and let the slaughter happen, Wiskeyjack would go and kill Dujek himself.

High Mage versus Bridgeburners is an internal faction that needs a motivation.

The only motivation I have is the link of Dujek with Kellanved, then Sorry. That is then negated by what's written in DG.

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The basic thing here is that the stories become a bit fudged. As you've already seen, the story as you understood it in GotM has been undermined. Some of that can be explained, and I've tried to do it above, but the main point is that between the first and third books there is a switch in character motivations and behaviour that just doesn't make any real sense. There's not really any way round it, but it's not a series-killer. It actually has surprisingly little effect on the aspects of the story that we follow.

It would be for me. This is one of the main plots if not the main one.

If it's not explained in a consistent way I'm going to be seriously pissed.

No writer can get away filling a book with misleadings and ambivalence, to only discover later that the mysteries weren't mysteries but just excuses to hide plot holes. You just can't.

I'm in the game as long the writer makes me believe he has the control over what he writes. The second I start doubting of it, is the second that writer failed.

I still have trust in Erikson, but I want explanations on that point. If they arrive in the 'x' book, ok. I'll wait. But if they don't arrive the writer has failed.

[Abalieno]

Dolorous Menhir;350499 said:

But the losses at Pale are too serious to be explained by that. I think the Malazan war aims changed over time. At the time of the Sorcery Enfilade, the objective was to take out Rake and seize Pale, regardless of the cost. So the losses involved in Tayschrenn's plan are acceptable to Laseen.

The losses at Pale weren't "acceptable", they were *intentional*.

It was known that the attack was going to end in a slaughter. The High Mage KNEW this. In fact it is very clear in GotM that the attack was mostly an excuse so that the slaughter could happen.

There was no reason to bring an army to a magic battle, what you expect them to do? Fling moranth munitions against Moon's Spawn? No one could do anything but stare. The only fight was between Rake and the High Mages. They would have obtained the EXACT same results by sending far away the army and then attack with just the mages. With no losses on their side.

So the actual attack with the army was made SO that the army could be wiped. And then justify the slaughter with the attack.

In every case possible the High Mage needs a motive for wanting the slaughter of his own army. And either he's doing what Laseen wants OR I expect Laseen to get rid of the High Mage in a timely manner.

It's just not believable that the High Mage goes against the empress will and the empress does nothing at all. And in this specific case it makes sense for her to take action on the High Mage. Not Dujek.

Who's betraying, Dujek or the High Mage? My theory was that Dujek was, and so it made sense to weaken him. But Laseen then tells Dujek is loyal. And every explanation falls apart.

[Illuyankas]

Incidentally, when will you be getting your copy of MOI?

[Abalieno]

Months ago

I got all the books, just need the time to read them. Once again I don't want to read answers, I just want the confirmation that the contradictions are resolved later, so that I can keep my faith in Erikson.

The confine between something exceptional and something terrible is really thin. I love this level of politics, but if I have the suspect that all these speculations are fed just by plot holes, well, it sucks greatly.

[Aptorian]

Trust me when I tell you that everything you thought you knew about the empires goals in GotM and DG is changed in MoI.

[Abalieno]

Anyway. If it changes, then it must be some skillful juggling to not contradict what is being already said.

These are quotes from GotM, Topper to Paran, about Sorry:

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'Your recruit is showing her powers,' Topper said, grimacing. 'She's corrupted the Bridgeburners, possibly even Dujek Onearm and the entire Second and Third Armies on Genabackis.'

Then, about using Dujek's Host as a blunt instrument against Laseen:

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Your recruit's found her weapon, and with it she means to strike at the heart of the Empire.

Then about the link between Dujek and Kellanved:

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She also feels it is time for Dujek Onearm to be…' he smiled, 'disarmed.'
'Why?'
'He has a following. It's still held that the Emperor had old Onearm in mind as his heir.'

And finally Shadowthrone himself. Talking clearly to Cotillion:

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'Don't get distracted, Ammanas. Laseen remains our target, and the collapse of the Empire she rules but never earned.'
'I have, as always, supreme confidence in you, Cotillion.

I don't know how this can be more clear.

Instead it is wonderful how Erikson gives so many obvious hints about who Shadowthrone is and yet no one realizes it:

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Kalam's gaze was veiled. 'Odd, isn't it? After all, the Warren only appeared following the Emperor's assassination at Laseen's hand. Shadowthrone and his companion the Patron of Assassins—Cotillion were unheard of before Kellanved and Dancer's deaths. It also seems that whatever… disagreement there is between House Shadow and Empres Laseen is, uhm, personal…'
Tattersail closed her eyes. Dammit, it's that obvious, isn't it?

Heh, so obvious...

[Aptorian]

Like I just wrote, wait untill you read MoI along with DG.

Much of what you read in GotM is a complete opposite to the motives in MoI. Some of the things you read are GotMism and others are missdirection.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Abalieno, I like your style. Your points are logical and I can't rebut your arguments. The problem here is that I'm trying to explain this based on my post-MoI understanding of things, and so are the others.

When I said the underlying details of the story were fudged, I meant it. That's why I can't explain more convincingly than I did above. Sorry. You'll just have to read MoI and then come to your own understanding. We just can't give you a solid explanation of everyone's actions based on what you know from GotM and DG, because we don't have one ourselves. My attempt above was the best I can do.

I also meant it when I said this wasn't that significant in the wider scheme of things. The political machinations around Dujek's army may have been the central focus of one book, the first, but that is just one early storyline among a great many more. You will have already seen that DG practically stood alone, as it did not rely on GotM in any major way.

Even if you are not happy with the resolution of this story, don't let it put you off. There are so many other things to enjoy. I'm reading the eighth book in the series just now, and I hate the thought of somebody not getting this far because of one fuzzy plot thread back in the third.

[Wry]

See this is something i don't really understand... how can people not get that all the books are full of lies. Plain and simple. a huge amount of what we think we know comes from what characters say, but most of it is theories those characters have, you can trust very little to be fact unless you "see" it happen.

It's wha ti like about the series, that you just never KNOW. You can muse, suspect assume but there's always the chance that the next xhapter will throw everything on it's head. you get to sift through all the misinformation to find the notes that ring true.

So in that light, yes you'll get alot of contradiction unless you treat everything you read as suspect. Quoting topper is the case in point - how does he know what ST and Cots real plans are? If he does, is he secretly for them or against them? does he see potential benifit for his own personal goal in informing or misinforming paran? Etc, etc.

That said, sometimes there are just plain mistakes like ST and Cot at the start compared to much later in the series... these i just chalk up to the long gap between Gotm and the other books, and the fact that SE churns these things out so fast he doesn't always catch all the anomalies. It's forgivable

[OtataralDragon]

Whether everything is explained in later books is highly debatable. In fact, posters here spend a lot of time debating things like the relationship between Kellanved and Laseen. No clear cut answers are ever offered - so far - but there are many many hints.

A few key things to remember: Characters in the books lie to each other. They'll say things that seem to contradict each other. Characters who were present for the same event will have very different ideas and descriptions of what happened. One of SE's basic tenets is that history can't be trusted.

Also, Laseen is pretty paranoid and will suspect anyone of potentially turning against her, so just because she might suspect Dujek doesn't mean his loyalty is in question.

[Epiph]

Wry;351279 said:

Quoting topper is the case in point - how does he know what ST and Cots real plans are? If he does, is he secretly for them or against them? does he see potential benifit for his own personal goal in informing or misinforming paran? Etc, etc.

I was going to say the same thing about Topper.

You can't know a character's actual plans until you're in that character's head...and even then, they might not ponder their plans while you're riding around in their head. So you definitely can't know a character's plans from what their enemies or allies hypothesize about them. Particularly as regards Shadowthrone and Laseen.

[Jersyguy]

Abalieno:

I think you are looking at things too singularly or simplisticly. Like a guy said previously, you are putting alot of faith in what the characters say (i.e. Topper), when you do not know if they tell the truth. Why send sorry instead of going himself? Well to ask that question you have to presume Shadowthrone/Cotillion have nothing else on their plate. (Plus, shadowthrone and cotillion's plans are not nessessarily perfectly aligned)

With regards the Dujek problem, his loyalty to the empress and the battle at Pale (bear with me here, been awhile since i read them):

We are told quite blatantly at the start of GotM that Laseen has inklings of who shadowthrone/cotillion is, when they first 'make' sorry they connot leave her alive because she knows their names, plus they will know the the hounds killed the army. Would Lassen want an agent of shadow in her army? Why leave things to chance? Send someone to get rid of her. Plus, Laseen wants rid of the old guard, most prominant amoungst those were the Bridgeburners (Kellevands favourites) - and remember Dujek is not a bridgeburner. At the battle of Pale were they not mining Pale's walls? Hence, the massive sorcery battle could quite possibly kill them, but without her hand being caught in the cookie jar.

That out of the way, Tayshrenne was supposed to be protecting the army who were laying seige to Pale, but remember they had an Elder god within their Cadre, plus hairlock who had treasonous notions? Was Tayshrenne not given the task of eliminating these (in a relatively risk free environment - i.e. not face to face), again without their hands being caught in the Jar, so as to not incur the wrath of the army. The loss the army saw was seen as bareable for a chance to get rid of rake, nightchill & Hairlock.

Besides Rake only appeared after Pale's magicians fled, as he had no choice, less the Malazan army take Pale. He was on his own too, which could have been seen as a good chance to possibly kill him after the weeding in their own army had been finished. I always saw it as a point where multple plans converged, with the outcome of said plans a little ambiguous.

This plot should not be seen as an integral part, just read on and you will see. I now see it as plans the people in question had set out upon, only to be completely changed when information/revelations come to light which make these plans frivolous at best.

This is what makes this series so 'realistic' to me. The fact that the best laid plans can/must be changed by external/internal factors, be them subjective or objective. However, I think if you read on, absolute closure from these books is something you cannot/will not obtain.