[Aptorian]

Perhaps... but Urko is described as being the most heavily muscled man Nom has ever seen. He probably looks like a professional bodybuilder or something. It sounds as though Urko is naturally strong, while Dassem, who isn't described as being built in the same wat, is supernaturally strong.

[Morgoth]

And it's important to notice that dassem is dessembrae, the lord of tradgedy, who is definitly listed as an ascendant.

[blackzoid]

So, hes not ascended, he doesn't have huge muscles, and he almost dies of dehydration and lack of food in the start of Toll The Hounds. Yet he beats up a bear.
How can he not be ascended but also have supernatural strength?
The only things that are not ascended but have great strength are non-humans, Forkrul Assail, Trell, Teblor, Jaghut, Icarium etc.
It doesn't make sense.

[Aptorian]

Actually, there's as much to be said about technique and training as pure mucle. Can an expert in a martial art hit something with enough strength to brake a bears ribcage? It's a good question.

I would claim that a Teblor ribcage is probably a lot stronger than a bears, but it's not really a good example.

[blackzoid]

Ya but this is after the Bear has bitten him on the head deeply. (It must have been a deep bite to soak the water so much in blood after Dassem washes himself afterwards).

And remember the "buzzing" in Dassem's head? What was that?
Might it be some link to his Dessembrae "form"?
Didn't Gaz complain about "buzzing" as well when Hood speaks to him?

[L'oric]

In....errr...Deadhouse Gates? Crokus and Apsalar wash up on Drift avali...maybe that was Bonehunters....and Traveler has used magic to fend off the Tiste Edur fleet.

I think Dassem is where Rake has been much of his life. Ascendant but mortal, not taking the mantle of godhood. In Dassem's case more because his character hates gods in general and does not trust them.

He is long lived. He is strong. He is a High Mage. He is the best fighter of his generation and the reincarnation of the First Sword Dessembelackis (which might be why the hounds get along with him.) He holds the most magical sword in the series we know of. Can you tell he is my favorite character? Is his sister in an Azath?

Sincerely,

[Silencer]

Wait, what?
I don't think we can call him a High Mage. We've seen no evidence of that, as far as I know - was it ever confirmed that it was Traveller who fended off the Edur? How is the sword magical? All it does is take your will and....do we even know what it does? I can't remember.
And how do we know that he's the reincarnation of Dessimbelackis?

And how do we know that he's rejected the notion of godhood? Other than that SE has said he views him as mortal.....the Cult was at the fight after all.

I don't know. I need a re-read. But I wonder where you get some of your certainties from, L'oric.

[Aptorian]

Indeed L'oric seems a bit... confused.

The fight on Drift Avalii takes place in HOC. I don't remember if Dassem is even struck by any sorcery, but he's certainly not a mage.

There is no connection between Dassem and Dessim. At least that's what Erikson says. Where did you get the idea that Dessimbelakis was the first sword of the first empire?

And it's his daughter lying in the Azath. The daughter Hood took and used in the chaining of the CG. The daughter that died because of Hood and the reason to why Dassem intends to kill Hood.

Dassem has obviously rejected his godhood, otherwise he would be pulled in this way and that and be imbroiled in a host of obligations. He can't afford that as his sole purpose is to find and kill Hood.

[blackzoid]

Ok, repeat after me......
Dassem and Dessembelackis are NOT the same character.
Dassem and Dessembelackis are NOT the same character.
Dassem and Dessembelackis are NOT the same character.
Dassem and Dessembelackis are NOT the same character.

Dassem = First Sword of The Malazan empire
Dessembelackis = Emperor of the (human) First Empire

No Connection at all.

[Grief]

L said:

In....errr...Deadhouse Gates? Crokus and Apsalar wash up on Drift avali...maybe that was Bonehunters....and Traveler has used magic to fend off the Tiste Edur fleet.

I think Dassem is where Rake has been much of his life. Ascendant but mortal, not taking the mantle of godhood. In Dassem's case more because his character hates gods in general and does not trust them.

He is long lived. He is strong. He is a High Mage. He is the best fighter of his generation and the reincarnation of the First Sword Dessembelackis (which might be why the hounds get along with him.) He holds the most magical sword in the series we know of. Can you tell he is my favorite character? Is his sister in an Azath?

Sincerely,

I dont think we can really call it the most magical sword. Dragnipur for one, and theres a quote about Tools somewhere "It is so imbued it could cut through anything" or something along the lines of that(envy to Toc, MoI).

Hes one of the best swordsmen of his generation.

In MoI it mentions someone who they find in Raraku who "Drove Dassem Ultor back a half Dozen steps in furious counterattack, his sword ablaze with the blessing of some unknown ascendant" or something like that.

It is also mentioned that Whiskeyjack sparred with Dassem, they were even, or at least very close too.

[Aptorian]

Well, Dragnipurrrrh is destroyed, so Grief does sound like the most powerfull sword around currently.

Tools sword is just a normal T'lan Imass sword as far as I remember. They're (almost) unbreakable and sharp. Nothing really special there.

The one who fought Dassem was a Jhag, Setha'lad Crool I think, who is now one of the souls inside Quick.

[BeLeG]

First of all Kilava invested Tool's sword with sorcery.I think it is mentioned by the end of MoI

The Jhag who drove Dassem back is not as good as Dassem.Whiskeyjack mentioned this feat to show that the Jhag did something really difficult.Because it is really difficult to drive Dassem even one step back.Whiskeyjack is most certainly not in the same league as Dassem.It would take a while for Dassem to get past Whiskeyjack's guard,but he did get past his guard every time.There is not even a hint that Whiskeyjack could threaten Dassem with his own attacks.I think the cases of Whiskeyjack and the Jhag are examples of Dassem's extraordinary skill.

[Tremolo]

Could Traveller be a soletaken? To explain his strength.

[Beld]

blackzoid;344606 said:

Eh, you have Karsa above Daseem? No, just no.
Karsa was "shaken" by the fight. He's not in Dassem's league at all.
I'd have put Trull above Karsa skill wise, Trull held off full rage Icarium after all. And Silchas Ruin too.
Don't get me wrong, Karsa is good, but if he was not a Teblor and was human/tiste sized he would do very poorly against such non-ascendents like Brys, Trull, Mok etc.
He is all great strangth/amazing attitude but poor skill.

That's how I see it as well. Karsa clearly is afraid to cross Dassem, though he will "witness". Obviously, I think Karsa is well equipped to fight masses of people due to his overwhelming size and perhaps him becoming "a warren unto himself" (I believe a quote from Reaper's Gale). I wouldn't say he is poor skill per se... clearly he has enough guile to have defeated the Seguleh while training for the emporer, but I would not be surprised to see mere mortals like Brys able to defeat him as well.

[Blacksox]

Beld;352649 said:

That's how I see it as well. Karsa clearly is afraid to cross Dassem, though he will "witness". Obviously, I think Karsa is well equipped to fight masses of people due to his overwhelming size and perhaps him becoming "a warren unto himself" (I believe a quote from Reaper's Gale). I wouldn't say he is poor skill per se... clearly he has enough guile to have defeated the Seguleh while training for the emporer, but I would not be surprised to see mere mortals like Brys able to defeat him as well.

I think Karsa probably has extrodinary skill. People want to classify him as a big dumb brute. That is more like a stereotype than anything approaching fact in the MBOTF. Stevens writing clearly shows Karsa is a fighter of exceptional skill. He is big, strong, incredibly fast, and light on his feet. He is the best warrior of a warrior race that pretty much lives to fight. He clearly even in his weaker fledgling form dominated even among his own kind; so his advantages clealry go beyond his size.

As far a character like Dassem and Rake they make me think of character in anime that move faster than the human eye can detect. Them being somewhat amazing to Karsa speaks more of their uberness than any lacking of ability in Karsa.

[Silencer]

Yes, that's true, Blacksox, but it still means that Dassem and Rake are probably better than Karsa.

[L'oric]

I could have sworn I have seen it where Dassem is called the First Sword reborn by at least one person recently and I am pretty sure it was Shadowthrone. I will see what I can see on that.

I could have sworn that there was a magical battle ship to ship between the Edur and the Malazan's and on one of those ships Traveler happened to be on before he got landed with the survivors on Drift Avalii. He is the one that fought off their sorcery...I think.... At least that is what I thought was fact.

I will re-read as always.

Sincerely,

[Optimus Prime]

Aptorian;344357 said:

I'm going to go ahead and claim that Rake is the best there ever was and he set himself up for the killing blow.

rable rable rable

Agreed. Rake was able to meet Dasseem blow for blow while carrying the weight of an entire realm filled with souls....this question doesn't seem up for debate.

[anothevilbadguy]

I believe that Dassem does have some resistance to magic, due to his strength of will, like Andarist against the four Edur mages on Drift, especially when holding Grief. However, it seems the mage who counterattacked the edur in the battle was a Mazalan woman, as she seemed to certainly have been attacked by magic power, and was still standing.

[Raraku]

Yeah she was a Talon whos name was the same as Noks wife.
Cotillion found her and picked her up when she died and took her somewhere and then talked to ST about her that she had remained loyal.
Grief/Vengence creates somesort of vortex around the weilder. Maybe this vortex withholds magical attacks. Andrist was killed cause he didnt have the will to wield the sword to its full capablity. Thus he was killed by the Edur mages.