[Nequam]

Wow, that dark?
I'm going to need to pick these up, but there are sooo many books on my list! I haven't enough money ot enough time to read.

[Knight of Bowen]

the gap is very dark indeed. and how SD makes you almost forgive and forget what some of the characters had done earlier. some of those things being soo terrible and sadistic. except for milos. but i still loved it it made it seem more real to me. finding this last book is shitting me. and there were other things going on in mordants need to take the focus off terisa definetly. id still recommend them to anyone along with anything donladson. all good shit

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Yeah, in the gap just when you get it fixed in your mind that "person A is good but helpless, person B is evil, and person C is good and will save A from C," they get all switched up and you don't know who's in what role anymore. Awesome stuff.

[Gem Windcaster]

That doesn't sound good. What I know of Donaldson, he makes everybody rape each other, and he can't pull that off without it getting tasteless (like SE does, incidentally). Just dark is not reassuring, I need dark in a good way.

[Christopher]

Gem Windcaster;345432 said:

That doesn't sound good. What I know of Donaldson, he makes everybody rape each other, and he can't pull that off without it getting tasteless (like SE does, incidentally). Just dark is not reassuring, I need dark in a good way.

:confused:Not sure I get what you mean by dark in a good way. It doesn't seem like you've read the Gap so I assume the rape you refer to is from The First Chronicles. I don't think that that particular episode was in any way gratuitous, it drove so much of the rest of the series. I'm not saying Donaldson couldn't have written the series without it, but within the story that act ending up affecting so much of the plot.

I'm kind of surprised that so many people identify that scene as the one that made them dislike the books. It wasn't just shock for the sake of jarring the reader, it had a definite purpose. Was it because it made it impossible for readers to identify with the protagonist? Or that it seemed gratuitous? Or was it that it didn't seem like Covenant was punished for the act and still seen as somewhat of a hero to the people of the Land?

I admit that I wasn't surprised by it because unfortunately I had read about it before reading the series, but still I don't see it as a series breaker. It may seem like Donaldson uses rape as a device and too often at that, but regrettably it is an all to common fact of life. He does get up close and personal with it though, rather than just stating that rape took place, so I guess that would turn off many readers.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Rape is overused in fantasy in general. Anytime an author wants to immediately identify someone as truly evil, they rape someone. NOt that I don't think rape is evil, it is, but it seems almost lazy for authors. "Hmmm, how do I express this guy is a twisted bastard? Oh yeah, rape!" There have been evil people who weren't rapists, but you often wouldn't realize that from reading fantasy.

Donaldson is the only one I can think of who used it differently with Covenant. iirc, he does use it to show evil in the Gap though.

[Gem Windcaster]

I knew it. I just don't think Donaldson is one of the authors that can make it work. I don't think it's as much the fact that the authors are lazy as much as it is that they lack the imagination to truly portray the horror about it. I like SE's way of dealing with it, because he doesn't try to explain it, or even try to write evil over it - everybody reading already know that. And then there's this other thing that I can't really put my finger on. The stuff in RG for example - he gives the 'victim' a sort of dignity - it's the best way I an put it really without writing spoilers.

It's one of the worst part of the fantasy genre, male or female writers alike, that they keep try to portray something that they just as diligently keep failing at portraying. If you can't handle it, don't use it ffs!

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Read the Gap. He portrays the horror of it. So you think the best way to portray the horror of it is to not explain it at all?

[Christopher]

I can see where it gets exploitative, like RLY says to quickly and easily show who's evil. It can tend to get ridiculous in fiction. Like in that Joan of Arc movie (?The Messenger?) where the English soldier kills her sister, rapes her then says to his fellows, "Your turn." It is tasteless to use this horrible crime so frivolously.

That being said, I don't find that Donaldson does this in any way. The instances he depicts are all for definite reasons, to establish the relation of power and powerlessness usually, and the repercussions ripple throughout the series. I can see where it wouldn't appeal to many people, the fact that he does use it often, but its never just for the sake of shock.

[Gem Windcaster]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;345746 said:

Read the Gap. He portrays the horror of it. So you think the best way to portray the horror of it is to not explain it at all?

You misunderstand me. I just appreciate some authors way of writing, over others, is all. I can't really explain it any better. Sorry.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Fair enough.

[Knight of Bowen]

Gem Windcaster;345708 said:

I knew it. I just don't think Donaldson is one of the authors that can make it work. I don't think it's as much the fact that the authors are lazy as much as it is that they lack the imagination to truly portray the horror about it. I like SE's way of dealing with it, because he doesn't try to explain it, or even try to write evil over it - everybody reading already know that. And then there's this other thing that I can't really put my finger on. The stuff in RG for example - he gives the 'victim' a sort of dignity - it's the best way I an put it really without writing spoilers.

It's one of the worst part of the fantasy genre, male or female writers alike, that they keep try to portray something that they just as diligently keep failing at portraying. If you can't handle it, don't use it ffs!

you must read the gap books theres a big difference between the scenes in question in the TC and the gap books.. in TC really put yourself in the persons shoes. im not condoneing it any way. the person in question could have wooed the victim easily.. and from having nothing to everything.. to brain explosion.. without spoilers i cant really say much more.. and the gap is totally different. its an awesome series, (even tho i still have the last one to go)even if you half like donaldsons work its worth reading..

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Especially if you're at all a fan of scifi, Gap is a must read. I need to reread it soon, maybe as soon as I'm done with my SE reread.

[Salt-Man Z]

The thing I love about Donaldson is that it doesn't seem to matter what genre he writes in. The setting is just that: a setting. And he does very well by his settings. But the main attraction (to me) is always his characterizations, and (and I think he doesn't get enough credit for this, but Mordant's Need certainly has them, and the Gap has 'em in spades) his incredible plot twists.

[HoosierDaddy]

Can someone fill me in on "The Gap" series? It sounds like it would at least be entertaining/enlightening. Can I get a premise, or even just a little more than "it's a good read" because if y'all like Erikson yah got taste.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

It's too late to be writing summaries myself right now, so, from the wiki:

The Gap Cycle (published 1991 - 1996, Bantam Books) is a science fiction story, told in a series of 5 books, written by Stephen R. Donaldson. It is an epic set in a future where humans have pushed far out into space in the name of commerce and follows two concurrent story arcs. The first concerns an ensign in the United Mining Companies Police (UMCP), Morn Hyland, who is attempting to simply stay alive after being captured by a marauder named Angus Thermopyle. The second follows the Byzantine political maneuvering of the head of the UMCP, Warden Dios, as he attempts to thwart the machinations of his boss, the CEO of United Mining Companies (UMC) itself, Holt Fasner.

[Knight of Bowen]

theres no reason why anyone cant at least read the 1st gap book.. after all its only 15mm thick. so even if your not sure about it you dont have to sit through 400-700 pages. but i do have to say the more i read the more i liked it.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Should be required reading for anyone who reads scifi.

[Salt-Man Z]

But be warned: though the first book isn't that great, it does provide the backstory between the primary three characters that is 100% essential to the rest of the series.

[amphibian]

HoosierDaddy;350100 said:

Can someone fill me in on "The Gap" series? It sounds like it would at least be entertaining/enlightening. Can I get a premise, or even just a little more than "it's a good read" because if y'all like Erikson yah got taste.

Woman gets caught up in really complex schemes between two heap big galaxy chiefs and gets hurt. A lot. And reminds us of it every thirty pages, while the galaxy chiefs figure out how to destroy the other without ruining their own games.

Keep in mind that I really liked the Covenant books.