[polishgenius]

Aptorian, on Oct 18 2008, 12:37 PM, said:

Clearly? Kallor is a damn good fighter, we've only seen him loose to Dassem, who also took out Skinner. Without the magical armor I think Skinner would be sorely tested by Kallor.

Kallor was apparently about even with Whiskeyjack though (ignoring the argument of who would have won without the leg break, WJ was at least good enough to attempt a killing blow), and Dassem by Dujek's description was way above Whiskeyjack's level.

[Aptorian]

polishgenius, on Oct 19 2008, 02:34 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Oct 18 2008, 12:37 PM, said:

Clearly? Kallor is a damn good fighter, we've only seen him loose to Dassem, who also took out Skinner. Without the magical armor I think Skinner would be sorely tested by Kallor.

Kallor was apparently about even with Whiskeyjack though (ignoring the argument of who would have won without the leg break, WJ was at least good enough to attempt a killing blow), and Dassem by Dujek's description was way above Whiskeyjack's level.

Kallor stepped on a spearbutt, losing his balance and that is what left him open for WJs lunge. The fight between the two barely even begun before it ended. I don't think we can't judge the two's skill compared to each other.

The point is that Kallor has killed dragons, jaghut, giants and probably a host of other things. His name is legendary. He's fought a thousand wars, and killed a host of opponents. I think he might have a slight chance against Skinner.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 19 October 2008 - 12:57 PM

[polishgenius]

Aye, I wouldn't write him off, but I'd definitely give Skinner the upper hand. I think they might be heading for conflict, so we'll see...

And if he never learned to mind his surroundings, it's a flaw in his skill as a swordsman, surely? I'm sure it was a few passes before he stepped on it though - not an epic fight, but enough for someone to get the upper hand if SE wanted them to. I might have to go reread that passage though.

[Greymane]

Aptorian, on Oct 19 2008, 08:02 PM, said:

Greymane, on Oct 19 2008, 02:12 AM, said:

he came to the realisation that the Vow had been rendered obsolete a long time before the rest of the Crimson Guard came to the same conclusion.

What? Do you mean the purpose of the vow? Becuase the vow was working pretty well.

Yeah, I meant the intent behind originally taking the Vow had basically become obsolete, the conclusion that Shiummer, Kazz and the rest reach at the end of the bok.

[Nakorite]

polishgenius, on Oct 19 2008, 08:34 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Oct 18 2008, 12:37 PM, said:

Clearly? Kallor is a damn good fighter, we've only seen him loose to Dassem, who also took out Skinner. Without the magical armor I think Skinner would be sorely tested by Kallor.

Kallor was apparently about even with Whiskeyjack though (ignoring the argument of who would have won without the leg break, WJ was at least good enough to attempt a killing blow), and Dassem by Dujek's description was way above Whiskeyjack's level.

wasn't there a passage where Dassem and Whiskeyjack were said to be quite close in skill?

[Aptorian]

Nakorite, on Oct 20 2008, 08:48 AM, said:

wasn't there a passage where Dassem and Whiskeyjack were said to be quite close in skill?

It was said that WJ was considered good because it would take Dassem 3-4 moves/tries to get past WJs guard. That was when they were sparing.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 20 October 2008 - 06:58 AM

[blackzoid]

Aptorian, on Oct 20 2008, 07:58 AM, said:

Nakorite, on Oct 20 2008, 08:48 AM, said:

wasn't there a passage where Dassem and Whiskeyjack were said to be quite close in skill?

It was said that WJ was considered good because it would take Dassem 3-4 moves/tries to get past WJs guard. That was when they were sparing.

Dassem stopped Kallor in seconds.
Dassem was fought to a draw by Skinner in their first duel, (presumably when he wasn't wearing armour and was therefore faster)
Now maybe Skinner did something like what Kallor did and ran away, but in the absence of evidence, we have to say that Skinner is/was a better fighter then Kallor.

[Aptorian]

blackzoid, on Oct 20 2008, 12:10 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Oct 20 2008, 07:58 AM, said:

Nakorite, on Oct 20 2008, 08:48 AM, said:

wasn't there a passage where Dassem and Whiskeyjack were said to be quite close in skill?

It was said that WJ was considered good because it would take Dassem 3-4 moves/tries to get past WJs guard. That was when they were sparing.

Dassem stopped Kallor in seconds.
Dassem was fought to a draw by Skinner in their first duel, (presumably when he wasn't wearing armour and was therefore faster)
Now maybe Skinner did something like what Kallor did and ran away, but in the absence of evidence, we have to say that Skinner is/was a better fighter then Kallor.

Lets take the fights of ROTCG into account, the fights the reader has actually witnessed and leave the stories about Skinner and Dassems fight in the past behind.

Yes, Dassem bested Kallor which was expected. Dassem would had done the same, probably just as quickly, with Skinner, only the damn armor protects him. One of the characters, maybe Temper I don't remember, remarks that again and again Dassem gets past Skinner guard but his strikes are ineffective because the armor protects Skinners body.

So Skinner wasn't better than Dassem, not even close, he was just better equipped.

[Mentalist]

hmm
possible point in favour of the NoK version of things--that was way before Y'Ghatan
back then he was still just Dassem, no? not Dessembrae.

[Aooga]

Aptorian, on Oct 20 2008, 02:15 PM, said:

blackzoid, on Oct 20 2008, 12:10 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Oct 20 2008, 07:58 AM, said:

Nakorite, on Oct 20 2008, 08:48 AM, said:

wasn't there a passage where Dassem and Whiskeyjack were said to be quite close in skill?

It was said that WJ was considered good because it would take Dassem 3-4 moves/tries to get past WJs guard. That was when they were sparing.

Dassem stopped Kallor in seconds.
Dassem was fought to a draw by Skinner in their first duel, (presumably when he wasn't wearing armour and was therefore faster)
Now maybe Skinner did something like what Kallor did and ran away, but in the absence of evidence, we have to say that Skinner is/was a better fighter then Kallor.

Lets take the fights of ROTCG into account, the fights the reader has actually witnessed and leave the stories about Skinner and Dassems fight in the past behind.

Yes, Dassem bested Kallor which was expected. Dassem would had done the same, probably just as quickly, with Skinner, only the damn armor protects him. One of the characters, maybe Temper I don't remember, remarks that again and again Dassem gets past Skinner guard but his strikes are ineffective because the armor protects Skinners body.

So Skinner wasn't better than Dassem, not even close, he was just better equipped.

Yeah but dude..again, Skinner fought Daseem in the past to a standstill sans armor(I'm trying to recall in which book but for the life of me can't seem to)....so whatever the case now at one point they were more or less equally matched. Now that Daseem has ascended(most likely) and Skinner has uber armor the following options explain the latest fight:

a. Daseem just got a hell of a lot better since ascending. There is indication that Cotillion is more skillful now than when he was Dancer so that's some precedent.
b. Skinner dumbed down his defense since strategically it makes sense to do so if he has impervious armor and focus more on his attacks....plus he was like literally 2 mins fresh off a seemingly lengthy and none to easy duel with Greyman and may have been winded somewhat.

I submit that both a and b could be true and that Skinner did not come across as anything much in this book but it still remains to be seen what skills he does posses. Someone needs to steal or break that armor post haste. Now tha he's King In Chains he may be on equal footing with Daseem in terms of enhanced abilities so....let's wait for round 2.

however, my gut tells me that the returned 2nd will take him out.


you know i wonder more and more about the Seguleh 1st and if he/she has actually already been revealed to us so far.

[Aptorian]

I will say again, Skinner did not fight Dassem to a stand still.

It's just said that Skinner was the only avowed to survive an exchange with Dassem. Meaning Skinner was probably running for his life while they fought, or Skinner attacked and afterwards was rescued by an advance from the guard.

I'm not arguing this point because I don't think Skinner is a great swordsman, I just don't like the fact that Kallor is suddenly thought worse than Skinner because he got a sword in the chest.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 20 October 2008 - 01:49 PM

[Grief]

Had skinner not had the armor, so would he.
If kallor had had the armor, he would not.

They both got hit, its just skinner had magical armor to protect him.

[blackzoid]

Aptorian, on Oct 20 2008, 02:48 PM, said:

Lets take the fights of ROTCG into account, the fights the reader has actually witnessed and leave the stories about Skinner and Dassems fight in the past behind.

Yes, Dassem bested Kallor which was expected. Dassem would had done the same, probably just as quickly, with Skinner, only the damn armor protects him. One of the characters, maybe Temper I don't remember, remarks that again and again Dassem gets past Skinner guard but his strikes are ineffective because the armor protects Skinners body.

So Skinner wasn't better than Dassem, not even close, he was just better equipped.

We are NOT arguing that Skinner is better then Dassem, he isn't.
But he's probably better then Kallor.
After Skinner was stabbed in the throat (in the second fight) he successfully fended off Dassem while retreating. Given that, and the thoughts uttered by Temper about how Dassem never spoke of their first fight, and the fact that Shimmer thinks that Dom should show more respect to the one of the few if not the only one who survived a fight with his predecessor, a pattern emerges.
And Kallor lasted what, 3 seconds?

But to be fair its mentioned by Skinner when Kyle first met him, that Skinner went after the Emperor and then Dassem intervened. Dassem may have been defending the emperor rather then actively attacking Skinner in that fight. The impression I got was that Skinner went after the emperor to buy time for the Guard to escape from Stratem. They were been overwhelmed by the Malazan forces.

And of course Dassem may have ascended since that first duel. So Kallor would have been at a disadvantage even more.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 20 October 2008 - 02:42 PM

[MecnunK]

I was just disappointed with Skinner's character. Had always kinda built him up as near the top of the tree as far as swordsmanship goes but in ROTCG he seems a big clumsy but a powerful oaf. I think, from Erikosn books we know that Skinner survived Daseem but not how. We dont know if he was running for his life or it was a fighting witdrawl or it was a plain draw of some sort.... but it seems obvious that the guy had blinding sword skills topping rest of the CG whereas in the ICE book he just seems reliant on strength and armour and no I dont buy that the armour has slowed him down so much that he has lost the skill he had with a sword. I expected him better than ironbars and blues etc.. Iron bars withstands Toblakai ascendants in Lethares. Blues chopped up the first adjunct without breaking a sweat. Erikson aside, it is stated several times in ROTCG that skinner fought Daseem to a standstill..meaning a straight draw where they could'nt get teh better of each other. I think it is from atleast 2 or three character POV's so if thi sis the case Skinner had definently degraded in skill when he finally fought Daseem.. It just seems inconsistent with rest of the book.

We know that Skinner can put up some sort of a fight against the quality of Daseem . I would be more inclined to believe they did a few passes and couldnt hurt each other but Skinner withdrew knowing in the long run he would get chopped. In ROTCG he was getting totally outclassed as far as skill goes and his armour saved him. I think it was just a disappointing fight overall..

[Mentalist]

I brought up this point in a dif thread already
at that point dassem may not have become Dessembrae yet (i. e., he hasn't ascended yet). he was just THAT good, that the top CriG managed to get a standstill, even after being all juiced up from being an Avowed.
Sinc then, Dassem ascended and became a god. Obviously that would boost him up the ladder a bit, don't you think?

[Silencer]

Have to agree with Mentalist, there.

However, I got the distinct impression Skinner was just waiting for Dassem to tire out. Relying on his armor.

Also, nobody actually seems to know what happened with the first Skinner-Dassem duel. It is stated by some that "only Skinner had ever walked away", and by others that Skinner and Dassem fought to a standstill. I have yet to see a PoV that says - "I remember Skinner and Dassem's fight" - therefore, we do not know what actually happened. It is quite possible that Skinner withdrew, then spread propaganda. It seems within his character to do so.

I'd put money on Dassem over either Kallor or Skinner, obviously, but Skinner vs Kallor? Hard. Skinner with armor, I'd give it. Otherwise...hmm....

[Nakorite]

MecnunK, on Oct 21 2008, 07:43 AM, said:

I was just disappointed with Skinner's character. Had always kinda built him up as near the top of the tree as far as swordsmanship goes but in ROTCG he seems a big clumsy but a powerful oaf. I think, from Erikosn books we know that Skinner survived Daseem but not how. We dont know if he was running for his life or it was a fighting witdrawl or it was a plain draw of some sort.... but it seems obvious that the guy had blinding sword skills topping rest of the CG whereas in the ICE book he just seems reliant on strength and armour and no I dont buy that the armour has slowed him down so much that he has lost the skill he had with a sword. I expected him better than ironbars and blues etc.. Iron bars withstands Toblakai ascendants in Lethares. Blues chopped up the first adjunct without breaking a sweat. Erikson aside, it is stated several times in ROTCG that skinner fought Daseem to a standstill..meaning a straight draw where they could'nt get teh better of each other. I think it is from atleast 2 or three character POV's so if thi sis the case Skinner had definently degraded in skill when he finally fought Daseem.. It just seems inconsistent with rest of the book.

We know that Skinner can put up some sort of a fight against the quality of Daseem . I would be more inclined to believe they did a few passes and couldnt hurt each other but Skinner withdrew knowing in the long run he would get chopped. In ROTCG he was getting totally outclassed as far as skill goes and his armour saved him. I think it was just a disappointing fight overall..

It was definately was dissappointing, but couple of points we probably should have realized

1) Bars mentions that Blues is the preeminate finnese swordsman
2) Shimmer i think mentions that even before Skinner went away he was "nigh on indestructible"


But yeah Skinner seems to be just a big powerful oaf. Hardly the kind of guy that the CG remarks "be glad it wasn't Skinner or indeed Cowl, they would have taken more notice" when Bars kills Rhulad in MT.

[Carnifex]

I read that passage after the Iron Bars/Rhulad fight to mean that they were more curious than Iron Bars. IB just hit and ran, Skinner or Cowl would've stuck around to figure out what Rhulad was, who brought him back, how they could steal the power for themselves, and mainly just keep killing Rhulad over and over to see how many times they could do it.

Skinner and Cowl's curiousity was clearly shown in RotCG; Iron Bars, on the other hand, isn't nearly as curious.

[MecnunK]

Mentalist, on Oct 21 2008, 03:21 AM, said:

I brought up this point in a dif thread already
at that point dassem may not have become Dessembrae yet (i. e., he hasn't ascended yet). he was just THAT good, that the top CriG managed to get a standstill, even after being all juiced up from being an Avowed.
Sinc then, Dassem ascended and became a god. Obviously that would boost him up the ladder a bit, don't you think?

Yeah true, he could have ascended and developed alot more speed endurance etc...but I am sure it can not be that easily explained... my point was more about skinner's skill as opposed to Daseem's. I just got the impression of a big dude with lots of armour and a longsword trying to hack a tree (ala someone from ASOIAF world) as opposed to a skillfull fight between 2 swordsman so I think there is a definitive inconsistency between erikson and ICE in portrayal of skinner.. The toblakai iron bars fought were ascendants too... The seguleh 2nd is personally after Skinner..we dont know why but it seems Skinner survived the skill of the 2nd Seguleh too (possibly even bested and killed him) at some point however pertinently he did'nt appear to have any sword skill as such in ROTCG.

[Cause]

I wonder if we will ever learn to stop trying and compare power levels. As for Dassem being so much better in his rematch with skinner I would point out that he has come along way and know carries the sword grief. A sword he made sure to re-collect. We were told by anomanders brother that so long as a man has the will to wield it he cant be beaten or some such. I cant be certain what advantage it gives dassem but it must be something.

Next in the previous fight between dassem and skinner where skinner survived or fought dassem to a standstill once must remeber one is avowed the other mortal. Dassem could put his sword through skinners chest and the other would have kept on fighting.