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Azath Houses Created/Destroyed

#41 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 06:29 PM

A said:

...Then there's the damn Azath basements. The Finnest-House has a floor of tiles that represent the Deck and the Tiles of the Holds, while Tremorlor has a basement with tiles representing geography....



And just to mess with you further, those could be two different impressions of the same space, or two different spaces accessible from any Azath...

- Abyss, could also be Abyss from a different Abyss...
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#42 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 06:40 PM

The tremolor tiles didn't just represent geography, it resembled thousands of azath across the universe.
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#43 User is offline   Urko Schmurko 

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 07:14 PM

Shouldn't Chaos also derive from an elemental force.? An Azath House of Chaos? I don't know if there's any linkage here, but it seems that the Azath houses aren't a lot different from Dragnipur. Dranipur hold spirits (maybe more than just the spirit since the Shadow Hounds got out body intact and Paran was able to come and go as he pleased). The Azath grounds use roots to entomb while in Draginpur it's chains. Both seem directed to the preservation of the status quo insofar as keeping Chaos or other rogue and unbalanced powers in check.
It makes me wonder why the Azath's couldn't counterbalance the potential damage the Chaos warren could inflict on everything. Perhaps Draconus knew that the Azath could not contain Chaos and so his contribution was the creation of Dragnipur. This is my long way of saying that there could be a strong linkage involving the Azath, elementals, and Elder Gods like Killy, Mael....and don't be surprised if K'rul also isn't involved with the Azath. We don't know how Killy came to be in under sea House, she may be a guest rather than a prisoner, I don't recall much talk about how she got in there and its hard to believe someone forced her or tricked her into surrendering to the Azath. How could it not be known, at least by some, that Killy ended up in an Azath unless she willfully and covertly entered it? I don't remember reading any details about her story and the Azath.
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#44 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 07:23 PM

The Azath are teamed up w/Order to fight against Chaos -- which, as you correctly assert, is by chaining/containing souls out of reach of Chaos. That being the case, how could there possibly be an Azath of Chaos...? That would be like an ocean of dryness...
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#45 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 07:26 PM

Urko Schmurko;293965 said:

Shouldn't Chaos also derive from an elemental force.? An Azath House of Chaos? I don't know if there's any linkage here, but it seems that the Azath houses aren't a lot different from Dragnipur. Dranipur hold spirits (maybe more than just the spirit since the Shadow Hounds got out body intact and Paran was able to come and go as he pleased). The Azath grounds use roots to entomb while in Draginpur it's chains. Both seem directed to the preservation of the status quo insofar as keeping Chaos or other rogue and unbalanced powers in check.
It makes me wonder why the Azath's couldn't counterbalance the potential damage the Chaos warren could inflict on everything. Perhaps Draconus knew that the Azath could not contain Chaos and so his contribution was the creation of Dragnipur. This is my long way of saying that there could be a strong linkage involving the Azath, elementals, and Elder Gods like Killy, Mael....and don't be surprised if K'rul also isn't involved with the Azath. We don't know how Killy came to be in under sea House, she may be a guest rather than a prisoner, I don't recall much talk about how she got in there and its hard to believe someone forced her or tricked her into surrendering to the Azath. How could it not be known, at least by some, that Killy ended up in an Azath unless she willfully and covertly entered it? I don't remember reading any details about her story and the Azath.


HOLY WALL OF TEXT BATMAN!!!

You should try and cut up and reformat your text so it's easier to read your points.

The Azath work towards order. So no there shouldn't be a Chaos Azath. Then again, you wouldn't think there could be an Ottataral Dragon either...

Chaos isn't an element, just like order isn't an element either. Chaos and Order are things that dictate the state of the elements. It's what creates and rules the elements but they can not logically themselves be an element in the same way fire, water, light and dark exist.

About Dragnipur, the hounds did not get their bodies back when they went into the darkness. Most likely they either seized to exist completely or their souls were transported into the Deragoth statues. Paran was able to get in there by a fluke, possibly the very flaw Draconus installed himself. Now he's able to come and go because he's the master of the deck. Special circumstances.

Killy was thrown into the Azath by Rake, I don't remember if he just tricked her into it or he beat her senseless first. She's not in there willingly, Knuckles is playing a mindgame with her that muddles her memories and keeps her docile. Finally, an RotCG spoiler:

Spoiler

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#46 User is offline   ShadowOwl 

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 10:29 PM

I don't think the Azath are there to fight chaos, I think they are there to balance chaos. SE talks a lot about the balance between order and chaos and the azath are a tool of order, like the aspected dragons, while the KCCM are a tool of chaos.
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#47 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 11:36 PM

ShadowOwl;294054 said:

I don't think the Azath are there to fight chaos, I think they are there to balance chaos. SE talks a lot about the balance between order and chaos and the azath are a tool of order, like the aspected dragons, while the KCCM are a tool of chaos.


Balance is one of the incarnations of Order. Order wars against Chaos. Substitution: Balance wars against Chaos. The Azath represent/are Balance. Second substitution: the Azath war against Chaos. It's tautological.

Where are you getting that the KCCM are a tool of Chaos?
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#48 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 02:55 AM

SiriusL;293894 said:

2) I have a loony/crazy theory that seems a bit outside the box. I hate to bring up the whole RPG angle, but what if the Azath represent the "rules" to the game, and are sort of the hand of the DM/GM in keeping the game fair? If you think of the series as one big game (which it was at one point, right?), the Azath suddenly seems like a guide and rule book. If you need to get from one realm to another, the Azath show you the way. If your character starts going outside the bounds of acceptable behavior, the Azath sucks in and contains your character.

Who have arguably been the two most effective players of late? Shadowthrone and the Crippled God, both of whom are either outside the rules, or just don't play fair. This is where it gets really crazy: Kellenved and Dancer realized they were in a huge game, and figured out how to use the Azath to get out of it (or to win it). They know that the only way to beat the cheater (the CG) is to break the rules yourself.

So, someone saw off the limb I'm dangling from...


interesting angle, takes into account the fact that it was originally created by ICE and SE to be an RPG. only thing is the azath don't so much guide by a set of rules as wrestle power into submission. im not sure there is any rules, the azath seems to take what it can get, any being of power, no matter how big or small gets roped in. everyone who goes onto the grounds of an azath is wary of stepping off the path, be it bugg, brys beddict or fiddler.

the craziest thing that could happen if in the last chapter of tCG SE goes all Douglas Adams. ahem.

Shadowthrone peered cautiously around the corner, seeing nothing he waved Cotillion forward. The Rope stepped lightly past Amanas and slid along the rough hewn wall of the shadowy passage. they were nearing the base. the very base of all azath material in existence. the tap root. when they reached the end of the tunnel they would finally know the truth.

the truth that had set them on this centuries long path through the azath, for the azath had a master, a mind that controlled all of its action and had been vicariously controlling the entire world of Wu(:o) since its inception.

cotillion took a few more cautious steps then found himself at a dead end. looking up he saw a small trap door silhouted in a bluish light. this was it. on the other side was the master of the entire universe. everything cotillion knew was controlled by the entity on the other side of this door. slowly and with heart hammering in his chest cotillion lifted up the door.

he was momentarily blinded by the light and deafened by noise. when his vision cleared he found that he was facing a chamber in which several plush couches and chairs sat facing an enourmous rectangular window and on the other side of it was a group of people gathered around a bonfire at night. on one of the couches sat a man, slightly balding and thin faced. he was looking at cotillion with intense shock in his eyes.

the man tried to speak, but only choking noises came out, and when he managed to give voice it was in a thin whisper, "Cot- Cotillion?" Cotillion nodded.

"I am the Patron of Assassins, you are the-"

"Katey! Get in here!" the man yelled, cutting Cotillion off.

"What is it Steve? Somebody get voted off?"

"No, Katey. I'm about to say something that will sound immensly insane. but it is Gods own truth i swear it."

"What is it?" and a womans head appeared in a doorway, her eyes locked on to Cotillions and she gasped.

"Katey, a character from my book is coming out of our loveseat."

"He's- he's a character?"

"A fictional character."

Cotillion was suddenly seized by an all consuming fear. this was not what he had expected. this was... this was insanity! Katey? Steven? it all made no sense, he spoke up: "The azath, you control them?"

The man looked back to Cotillion, "I don't know how to explain this to you Cotillion, but, well, yes, I control the azath. i control everything in your universe. i created your universe. i write books about it. somehow that... loveseat is a wormhole. a gate, to you. between my dimension and your own."

Cotillion's mind was reeling. nothing he had ever imagined came close to this reality, he could not accept it. his felt his mind physically recoil in the face of... of... the truth.

he ducked back into the tunnel and turning around to Shadowthrone, fled.

the grin, slid off Shadowthrones face like so much yoke and the man began to yell: "Hey! Hey! Cotillion! What did you see? who is up there? tell me you fool! i must know!"

Cotillion's only reply was to shout over his shoulder: "Don't ever meet your maker Amanas. It's terrifying!"


:Ddidnt know the name of SE's significant other:D
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#49 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 04:09 AM

When I got to the part about the tap-root I figured they'd be getting some maple... sorry, azath syrup.

Very nicely done, Toste :o
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#50 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 06:22 AM

hah...
that made me think of Thomas Covenant...
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#51 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 08:04 AM

Sinisdar Toste;294147 said:

interesting angle, takes into account the fact that it was originally created by ICE and SE to be an RPG. only thing is the azath don't so much guide by a set of rules as wrestle power into submission. im not sure there is any rules, the azath seems to take what it can get, any being of power, no matter how big or small gets roped in. everyone who goes onto the grounds of an azath is wary of stepping off the path, be it bugg, brys beddict or fiddler.

the craziest thing that could happen if in the last chapter of tCG SE goes all Douglas Adams. ahem.

Shadowthrone peered cautiously around the corner, seeing nothing he waved Cotillion forward. The Rope stepped lightly past Amanas and slid along the rough hewn wall of the shadowy passage. they were nearing the base. the very base of all azath material in existence. the tap root. when they reached the end of the tunnel they would finally know the truth.

the truth that had set them on this centuries long path through the azath, for the azath had a master, a mind that controlled all of its action and had been vicariously controlling the entire world of Wu(:o) since its inception.

cotillion took a few more cautious steps then found himself at a dead end. looking up he saw a small trap door silhouted in a bluish light. this was it. on the other side was the master of the entire universe. everything cotillion knew was controlled by the entity on the other side of this door. slowly and with heart hammering in his chest cotillion lifted up the door.

he was momentarily blinded by the light and deafened by noise. when his vision cleared he found that he was facing a chamber in which several plush couches and chairs sat facing an enourmous rectangular window and on the other side of it was a group of people gathered around a bonfire at night. on one of the couches sat a man, slightly balding and thin faced. he was looking at cotillion with intense shock in his eyes.

the man tried to speak, but only choking noises came out, and when he managed to give voice it was in a thin whisper, "Cot- Cotillion?" Cotillion nodded.

"I am the Patron of Assassins, you are the-"

"Katey! Get in here!" the man yelled, cutting Cotillion off.

"What is it Steve? Somebody get voted off?"

"No, Katey. I'm about to say something that will sound immensly insane. but it is Gods own truth i swear it."

"What is it?" and a womans head appeared in a doorway, her eyes locked on to Cotillions and she gasped.

"Katey, a character from my book is coming out of our loveseat."

"He's- he's a character?"

"A fictional character."

Cotillion was suddenly seized by an all consuming fear. this was not what he had expected. this was... this was insanity! Katey? Steven? it all made no sense, he spoke up: "The azath, you control them?"

The man looked back to Cotillion, "I don't know how to explain this to you Cotillion, but, well, yes, I control the azath. i control everything in your universe. i created your universe. i write books about it. somehow that... loveseat is a wormhole. a gate, to you. between my dimension and your own."

Cotillion's mind was reeling. nothing he had ever imagined came close to this reality, he could not accept it. his felt his mind physically recoil in the face of... of... the truth.

he ducked back into the tunnel and turning around to Shadowthrone, fled.

the grin, slid off Shadowthrones face like so much yoke and the man began to yell: "Hey! Hey! Cotillion! What did you see? who is up there? tell me you fool! i must know!"

Cotillion's only reply was to shout over his shoulder: "Don't ever meet your maker Amanas. It's terrifying!"


:Ddidnt know the name of SE's significant other:D



Rofl I want more!

Interesting that the azath Houses have a "safe path" throughout. It's almost like they were designed that way... perhaps the Nameless Ones clubbed together, summoned all their powers... and built a safe path.
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#52 User is offline   Raraku 

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 07:06 PM

Sinisdar Toste;294147 said:

interesting angle, takes into account the fact that it was originally created by ICE and SE to be an RPG. only thing is the azath don't so much guide by a set of rules as wrestle power into submission. im not sure there is any rules, the azath seems to take what it can get, any being of power, no matter how big or small gets roped in. everyone who goes onto the grounds of an azath is wary of stepping off the path, be it bugg, brys beddict or fiddler.

the craziest thing that could happen if in the last chapter of tCG SE goes all Douglas Adams. ahem.

Shadowthrone peered cautiously around the corner, seeing nothing he waved Cotillion forward. The Rope stepped lightly past Amanas and slid along the rough hewn wall of the shadowy passage. they were nearing the base. the very base of all azath material in existence. the tap root. when they reached the end of the tunnel they would finally know the truth.

the truth that had set them on this centuries long path through the azath, for the azath had a master, a mind that controlled all of its action and had been vicariously controlling the entire world of Wu(:o) since its inception.

cotillion took a few more cautious steps then found himself at a dead end. looking up he saw a small trap door silhouted in a bluish light. this was it. on the other side was the master of the entire universe. everything cotillion knew was controlled by the entity on the other side of this door. slowly and with heart hammering in his chest cotillion lifted up the door.

he was momentarily blinded by the light and deafened by noise. when his vision cleared he found that he was facing a chamber in which several plush couches and chairs sat facing an enourmous rectangular window and on the other side of it was a group of people gathered around a bonfire at night. on one of the couches sat a man, slightly balding and thin faced. he was looking at cotillion with intense shock in his eyes.

the man tried to speak, but only choking noises came out, and when he managed to give voice it was in a thin whisper, "Cot- Cotillion?" Cotillion nodded.

"I am the Patron of Assassins, you are the-"

"Katey! Get in here!" the man yelled, cutting Cotillion off.

"What is it Steve? Somebody get voted off?"

"No, Katey. I'm about to say something that will sound immensly insane. but it is Gods own truth i swear it."

"What is it?" and a womans head appeared in a doorway, her eyes locked on to Cotillions and she gasped.

"Katey, a character from my book is coming out of our loveseat."

"He's- he's a character?"

"A fictional character."

Cotillion was suddenly seized by an all consuming fear. this was not what he had expected. this was... this was insanity! Katey? Steven? it all made no sense, he spoke up: "The azath, you control them?"

The man looked back to Cotillion, "I don't know how to explain this to you Cotillion, but, well, yes, I control the azath. i control everything in your universe. i created your universe. i write books about it. somehow that... loveseat is a wormhole. a gate, to you. between my dimension and your own."

Cotillion's mind was reeling. nothing he had ever imagined came close to this reality, he could not accept it. his felt his mind physically recoil in the face of... of... the truth.

he ducked back into the tunnel and turning around to Shadowthrone, fled.

the grin, slid off Shadowthrones face like so much yoke and the man began to yell: "Hey! Hey! Cotillion! What did you see? who is up there? tell me you fool! i must know!"

Cotillion's only reply was to shout over his shoulder: "Don't ever meet your maker Amanas. It's terrifying!"


:Ddidnt know the name of SE's significant other:D





Hahahahhahahaha
That sounds kinda like Stephen Kings Dark Tower series where Roland and the others meet their maker

#53 User is offline   SiriusL 

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 07:22 PM

"Sinisdar Toste" said:

"What is it Steve? Somebody get voted off?"

hahaha!

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#54 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 11:33 PM

righting his name incorrectly that many times made me wonder, why did Kellenved change his name to Ammanas? is that some shadow cult ref or title? do they chant to Aaaammaaanaaas?

do we have any inside info on this, and is it at all significant? can't remember to many other mentions outside the glossary. kinda sounds like maenas...

and re-reading it. steve sounds like the ergo and insomuch guy in the white suit from matrix revolutions

edit: no the second one
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#55 User is offline   Raraku 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 12:02 AM

Even though Fears legend about the KCCM Matrons death spell maybe fake i think that its true cause after the spell Chaos stared to catch up with Darkness (also because of Dragnipur) and it was because of this death spell that for some reason an entity made the Azath House so that Order would be preserved.
And from the Houses of Azath came the Holds ( before there was wandering ) which later evolved into Warrens and the Deck of Dragons.
It was because of the creation of the Azath Houses that stopped the migration of each house

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 12:39 AM

Raraku;294689 said:

Even though Fears legend about the KCCM Matrons death spell maybe fake i think that its true cause after the spell Chaos stared to catch up with Darkness (also because of Dragnipur) and it was because of this death spell that for some reason an entity made the Azath House so that Order would be preserved.


No.

There's no textual connection between the deathspell and the Chaos in Dragnipur, there's lots of passages that suggest the deathspell would hamstring Chaos' efforts entirely. Deathspell and Chaos in Dragnipur are entirely different things, as far as we know.


Raraku;294689 said:

And from the Houses of Azath came the Holds ( before there was wandering ) which later evolved into Warrens and the Deck of Dragons.
It was because of the creation of the Azath Houses that stopped the migration of each house


Holds, not Houses, stopped the migration of the warrens (edit: or of something, anyway), not of the Houses. Houses never migrated. Neither did Holds.

Holds preceded Houses, Holds did not arise from the Azath houses.

The idea that the Azath are keeping the Houses in place now is a neat one, props for that.
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Posted 25 April 2008 - 12:46 AM

ummm...
Once again, we do NOT know the migration/wandering of what exactly was stopped. As I mentioned in another forum, imho, you're oversimplifying by simply equating houses/holds to particular warrens.
the only concrete thing we have that used to "wander" was the gate to KG. yet there was no Hold of Darkness--in MT Seren Pedac even says so. yet High House Dark arose, as did High house light, with the main charactods being drawn from the Hold of Dragons.

while I do not agree with Raraku's suggestion that Warrnes came out and organised everything so neatly, I must stress agains tis oversimplification. I need to have more info (read: more books) before I am ready to present my own view of the Azath, but this kind of oversimplification just doesnt's feel right..
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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Posted 25 April 2008 - 02:13 AM

kud13;294695 said:

ummm...
Once again, we do NOT know the migration/wandering of what exactly was stopped.


That's fair; I was mostly just pointing out that sequence-of-events-wise, it goes: wandering (of something) --> Holds --> Houses, and there's really no two ways about that. Four characters bring it up: Aramala, Karsa, Paran and Draconus. And Silverfox agrees, which really makes it (at least) seven characters that have endorsed it -- I'd stake my true name that SE isn't messing with us on this one.
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#59 User is offline   Raraku 

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 04:48 AM

Venerus;294693 said:

No.

There's no textual connection between the deathspell and the Chaos in Dragnipur, there's lots of passages that suggest the deathspell would hamstring Chaos' efforts entirely. Deathspell and Chaos in Dragnipur are entirely different things, as far as we know.




Holds, not Houses, stopped the migration of the warrens (edit: or of something, anyway), not of the Houses. Houses never migrated. Neither did Holds.

Holds preceded Houses, Holds did not arise from the Azath houses.

The idea that the Azath are keeping the Houses in place now is a neat one, props for that.




Right sorry i just thought that warrens came from Holds and that Houses always existed
Thanks for clearing that
i know that the actual evolution is kinda vague but thats as close to as i could figure.
Its been discussed elsewhere that the KCCM death spell and Dragnipur isnt the same or even an effect of one another but i still think that the spell had something to with the creation of Azath houses as a system to combat Chaos

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 12:47 PM

warning, long ramble ahead...

I'd rather think that the Forkrul were responsible for the first Azath sprouting, in fact it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if a huge bunch migrated here from other realms back in ancient times and planted the first Azath to seal the gate they used.

New Wonder-Brand Azath, Seals rents and holes in reality, Anchors planes faster than any competing product on the market. Also has a Trunk upgrade for meeting your most extravagent Storage Needs! They seem like the type to go tripaising through the warrens, planting at least one in each realm they passed through (passed through being only in residency for several thousand years or less :D ) to help contain any nasty locals they run across and tie the new world into the network as it were. They seemed to be quite the annoyance plague back in the day across many realms judging by Anomanders passing remark to Kilmandaros in the prologue for RG or BH. The Errant also indicated they(FA) seemed to venerate the Azath IIRC.

I don't think it likely that the Azath was a creation of the K'Chain Chemaille, they've been branded as chaotic, and I don't see them being particularly interested in an Azath anyway. N'hruk maybe? I can see them having a more scientific curiosity as it were? Giving the timing of various events to shoehorn my theory, I'd say the FA first appeared on the scene either pre-longtail evolution, or just after the tide turned in the civil ware and the matrons could no longer ensure the god blocker.

In fact, now that I think about it...it's quite possible the Forkrul were steered towards the Malaz world by "concerned parties" read Errant or other Elder God back during the K'Chain domination, they broke through with a rent from another realm, planted the Azath to seal it behind them, once the Azath sprouted it linked Malaz world into the greater planar structure and poof, suddenly the God's can acccess the world again via the hole the Azath pried through reality and filled with itself.

This thread and a couple of others has started me invisaging the Azath as the conduit...hmm no, more transmitter? of the Gods will/voice from the outside warrens into the world. That would help explain the ability of the Azath to pin gods into Houses and the like. Especially as I'm beginning to think that a world with no Azath is doomed to have no planar accesses and no god bothering without brute force renting of spacetime opening the way. So it wasn't so much the K'Chain matrons that kept the gods from the world, but the lack of Azath links?

Oh gosh, someone had better stop me here, I can keep going all night with the crazy theories.
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