[Obdigore]

So, as mentioned in another thread, someone said 3 have been destroyed and 2 created.

Lets start with created that we have seen:

GoTM in Darujistan, and RG in the pocket-warren-thingie over the gates.

Now, the 3 issues with them dying we know about:

Iccy Damaged one looking for Daddy.
The one on the Jhag Plains.
The one that dies in Lether.

Now, the one in Lether is obviously 'reborn' as the one at the end of RG. I had beent hinking that the one Iccy damaged is the same one as the one on the Jhag plains where (phalis?) tree-jhag has been rooted.

Looking for any and all thoughts on this.

[Veilside]

The one Icarium attacked is the one in Raraku in Deadhouse Gates I believe, he didn't destroy the Azath so that one is still standing.
The one on the Jhag plains is a different one to that and the new one in Starvald Demelain is "reborn" from the one in Lether as you said.
That just leaves us with the one that was formed in GotM.

[Aptorian]

I think we need a quote about Tremolor. My impression was that the Azath was a replacement for the one Iccy destroyed.

[Mentalist]

??? I'm fairly certain that teh Azath Iccy destroyed was the one in Jhag Odhan. Tremorlor remains undestroyed.
plus, in tBH we are told that teh only reason Phyrlis the unlucky Jaghut survived was because her body had been tossed together with the nearly dead Azath remains... destroyed by Iccy

to sum up:
existing
Deadhouse on MAlaz Island
Tremorlor "House of Life" in Raraku, 7C
Under the sea Azath--location unknown, on the bottom of some large body of water contains Killimandros and (presumably) Set'chul Lath

destroyed:
Odhan House, Jhag Odhan, 7C--presumably by Iccy.
Lether Azath tower--Letheras, Lether--dead of old age?/undoing of ritual?/the Seventh Closure?
ROTCG SPOILER:

Spoiler

unknown house from RotCG prologue, location unknown, presumably destroyed by the Bastard of Light

created/reborn
Finnest House--Darujhistan, Genabackis
The Lether Azath Tower--inside the Refugium, guarding the gate to SD

[Venerus]

I'm gonna edit this one a whole bunch so all the salient points are together.

Here's the quote that proves the Iccy/Odhan link:

HoC p. 699. Phyrlis is speaking w/Cynnigig about the Azath/Jaghut fusion she's become:

Quote

"...[the Azath] was already dying and had been for years. Fatally wounded. Oh, Icarium was on his knees by the time he finally delivered the mortal blow, raving with madness...
...so the house died, weakening the fabric...
Sufficiently for the warren to be torn apart"

Iccy blew up Odhan house, destroyed some warren.

Gothos from DHG:

Quote

"Why?" Fiddler whispered. "Why is Icarium so cursed?"
The Jaghut cocked his head, then abruptly swung back to the fire. "Wounded warrens are a dangerous thing. Wounding one is far more so. My son sought a way to free me from the Azath. He failed. And was... damaged. He did not understand -- and now never will -- that I am content here. There are few places in all the realms that offer a Jaghut peace, or, rather, such peace as we are capable of achieving. Unlike your kind, we yearn for solitude, for that is our only safety."
He faced them again. "For Icarium, of course, there is another irony. Without memory, he knows nothing of what once motivated him. He knows nothing of wounded warrens or the secrets of the Azath."

Put together with Gothos' quote, the destruction of Odhanhouse was connected to/lead to the shredding of some warren, and explains at least part of Icarium's madness (maybe just the amnesia, as Apt pointed out).

Mappo and Iccy in DHG, inside of the KE fragment around Tremorlor:

Quote

"And Tremorlor knows [about Iccy's rage]," Icarium said, in a cold, flat voice. "The Azath can do naught but take me."
If it is able, and so sorely tested before the effort's even begun. In your anger you may destroy it -- spirits below, what do we risk here?
"I believe this warren has shaped you, Icarium. After all this time, you have finally come home."
"Where it began, it shall end. I go to Tremorlor."

Oho, the same warren that "shaped" Icarium is now at Tremorlor? Sounds like it might be the same warren that we just heard about from Gothos and Phyrlis.

Azath can arise when there is need, as we know. Looks like this one arose specifically to contain something of great power:

Quote

"I have never seen an Azath manifest itself in this way," Mappo said. No, not an Azath, but I have seen staves of wood...
"I have," Crokus said. "In Darujhistan. The Azath House there grew from the ground, like the stump of a tree. I saw it with my own eyes. It rose to contain a Jaghut Finnest."

Suggestion here: Tremorlor arose to contain....

Icarium:

Quote

The Azath is under siege. This fragmented warren seeks to pull free of the House's grip.

A fragment of a warren! Ties in nicely w/Icarium's destruction of Odhanhouse, and makes sense of Mappo's comment about "this warren shaping him" and the "where it began/so it shall end" theme. Ok, so WHAT warren is it? My speculation is that it's KE, although some people disagree. Given that ST and Pust have their hands all over it, shadow makes sense but for what it's worth:

Quote

The Trell swung his gaze to Apsalar. "What warren is this?"
"I don't know. It has indeed been torn apart. There is little hope of determining its nature given the state it is now in. And my memories tell me nothing of such a warren so destroyed."(1)
Mappo sighed, rolling his shoulders to ease the tension binding his muscles. "Ah, well, why assume that the Elder Warrens we know of -- Tellann, Omtose Phellack, Kurald Galain -- are the only ones that existed?"(2)

(1) Must have been destroyed a lloooooong time ago, or perhaps multiple times >_>
(2) Supported by Mappo's immediate assumption that it was some Elder Warren. Better yet, he doesn't even mention KE!

I think it fits. First empire shredded KE, Odhanhouse arises to contain a big fragment of it. Maybe its even on the mend, but then Icarium comes along and blows it to shit. Or maybe Icarium even had a hand in destroying it the first time, too -- maybe Odhanhouse was the original KE house. I mean, Mappo goes out of his way a little later to talk about the First Empire town that Icarium destroyed soon after this passage. Maybe SE just wants us to think they're related.

Seeing as we're to get the "full scoop" on Dissemblackis and the FE ordeal in TtH, I'm guessing this all gets answered soon. So soon...

[Quick Joe]

The thing Ive never understood is did iccy have the homicidal rage thing before he destroyed the house or did he get that from destroying the house?

[Aptorian]

Nobody knows.

There was some speculation in BH, I believe it was Cots suggestion to Mappo, that Iccy had been poisoned with some kind of chaotic craziness.

But the damage from the sundering might merely be the affliction that causes the memory loss. The rage could be a particularly severe case of Jaghut bad temper that he inherited from his father.

... it's all speculation.

[Mentalist]

He had the rage. All Jaghut do.
killing the Azath wiped his memory though--hence he has no haunting memories to hold him back from unleashing it.

[Raraku]

Though it is said that the Nameless Ones also have something to do with Icariums memory loss
Dont have a quote but i think it was Spite telling Mappo or having an inner monologue

[Aptorian]

kud13;293403 said:

He had the rage. All Jaghut do.
killing the Azath wiped his memory though--hence he has no haunting memories to hold him back from unleashing it.

But Icarium is a Jhag, not a Jaghut. there is surely some difference.

[Mentalist]

I don't see a reason why he couldn't inherit it from Gothos. Besides, the fact that we are told that all Jaghut have it, means it must be a dominant trait... sop it would get passed on to the Jhags as well. The only other Jhag we hear of (one of QB's souls) used that rage to drive off Dassem several steps..

[Venerus]

Aptorian;293358 said:

I think we need a quote about Tremolor. My impression was that the Azath was a replacement for the one Iccy destroyed.

Since Tremorlor seems to be trapping a fragment of Shadow, and since it's possible Icarium's destruction of Odhanhouse released the fragment/shattered KE (more), it would make sense if Tremorlor arose in response to the destruction of Odhanhouse. I can't find anything definitive though... still searching.

[Mentalist]

?
is Tremorlor really connected to KE? I though that the KE fragment hung directly on top of the Sha'ik's oasis?

[Aptorian]

That was another fragment or possibly a fragment of the fragment Icarium... fragmented

[Venerus]

Found something....

Mappo and Iccy in DHG, inside of the KE fragment around Tremorlor:

Quote

"And Tremorlor knows [about Iccy's rage]," Icarium said, in a cold, flat voice. "The Azath can do naught but take me."
If it is able, and so sorely tested before the effort's even begun. In your anger you may destroy it -- spirits below, what do we risk here?
"I believe this warren has shaped you, Icarium. After all this time, you have finally come home."
"Where it began, it shall end. I go to Tremorlor."

So, the same warren Iccy destroyed by destroying Odhanhouse (that "shaped" him/erased his memory, according to Gothos) is now guarded by Tremorlor. Azath arise when there is need*, so the idea that it arose to take the fragment makes sense to me. Rep for Apt. Not that he needs it. Edit: "spread more around" pah.

Also, Mappo's concern that Icarium might destroy Tremorlor kind of hints that SE put that part in specifically to make us think of the last house he destroyed.


*Ahh! Here we go:

Quote

"I have never seen an Azath manifest itself in this way," Mappo said. No, not an Azath, but I have seen staves of wood...
"I have," Crokus said. "In Darujhistan. The Azath House there grew from the ground, like the stump of a tree. I saw it with my own eyes. It rose to contain a Jaghut Finnest."

Icarium:

Quote

The Azath is under siege. This fragmented warren seeks to pull free of the House's grip.

Tremorlor rose specifically to contain some great power...it now holds the warren fragment...etc it fits better and better.

[Aptorian]

All rep goes to the peoples army fighting in the trenches for the WIN.

Nice quote. It's funny how Erikson is able to put forth so much info and yet still make the meaning infuriatingly vague.

[Mentalist]

so vague, in fact that i'm still not entirely convinced... too much stuff happened.
After all, MAppo knows the story from the Nameless Ones, and they've already lied to him..

[Abyss]

Some interesting points above.... i'll multi-respond...

re Iccy -

In GotM, Tool tells Lorn the key to fighting Jaghut were to piss them off to the point they became indiscriminate in their rage, so it seems to be a racial trait. Jahg are half Jaghut whatever else they are, so no reason why some may not have the nutbar factor.

Curiously, Gothos seems to be VERY reasonable and calm as Jaghut go, which might lend itself to speculation Iccy got the rage from his Mom's side (do NOT reopen that discussion, i beg you - who his Mom is isn't the point).

It seems clear that whatever else was inside Iccy, detroying the Odhan Azath House caused something to go wrong in his head.

It also seems clear the NOs are exploting it when they can.

re: Azath we have known

- Iccy destroyed the Odhan House when Phyrllis eventually takes root.
- Tremolor is in Raraku.
- The Deadhouse is on Malaz Island.
- The Letherii House was old and died, although that may have been sped up by the number of powerful ascendents it was holdling. That said, it was already around when the Scabby/Silch Tiste invasion happened, so it was OLD.
- Finnest House popped up in Darujhistan.
- Refugim House - details tbd, but its on a gate to SD, so it's clearly significant somehow.

Something interesting from those - Tremolor is in Raraku on 7C, where the human First Empire popped up.

The Leth House was in Leth, where another empire started.

Deadhouse - Malaz Island. Do i even need to elaborate?

Finnest House - Darujhistan, richest city on Genabackis and the center for a LOT of the events we've seen and may yet see.

Refugim - the dead come back to life there, hello!

All of which is to say, there may be some significance to the presence of the Houses, other than or in addition to our speculation about any link to the 'Lost Elementals' ref'd in TB


re: Jaghut and Azath

Curious connection between Azath and Jaghut - consider we've seen Raest, Gothos and others in service to the Azath, Phyrllis gets stabbed over one and becomes a tree, Iccy knew to look in one for Gothos... could be just that the Azath are a convenient haven for Jaghut fleeing Imass Jihad, and the Jagtree thing is explainable by Jaghut being hard to kill and sheer coincidence... hmmm...


- Abyss, also notes the Sasquatch lives in an Azath House in Northern Canada...

[Obdigore]

Raraku;293407 said:

Though it is said that the Nameless Ones also have something to do with Icariums memory loss
Dont have a quote but i think it was Spite telling Mappo or having an inner monologue

Yes, someone mentions something about the 'stink of nameless one ritual sorcery' around Iccy.

So, he gets an 'infection' that removes his memory from fatally wounding a House, and then the nameless ones weave rituals around him so he cannot excise it himself, and leaving the 'infection' potent? They would them sit a choosen 'caretaker' with him to allow them to guide him and use him as a weapon?

ROTCG Spoiler

Spoiler

Yes, I saw that part about Light's Bastard killing an azath house in that summary. Didn't want to include it here since we don't KNOW it

[Mentalist]

why does everyone forget the Killy Azath?
It's also around...
re: what Abyss said. Gothos ddid say something along the lines of "Azath is the only place that can guarantee us (the race) the solitude we desire." [/parapharase]
And Raest did not seem unhappy with the new job in MoI.
also, there were Jaghut towers built by the Lether Azath. In that respect the connection is practical
re: Azath arizing in places of power--I'd like to look at it the other way--places of power draw people to build cities there, cities become capitals, etc....