[Tarr]

I really like how SE has gone off in a different direction on things like magic and dragons, but he does not seem to do the same with demons...

Tay summons a lord of the Galyan who is a lot more powerful then Tay so how come he can force him to do what he wants?

We get a look at where some of the demons are coming from in MT and it's a world similar to Wu, yet for some reason humans can summon demons from their world and the demons can't do the same...

Plus why can't somebody in theory summon a tiste andii to do their bidding, thus avoiding the trouble of having to kill them?

Is there something I'm missing or has this been explained elsewhere/or not?

[Khellendros]

Maybe demons are more humane than humans, so they don't summon them, and instead go fishing and the like Plus, who would summon a scrawny human anyway, what would you do with it when you're a big, powerful demon already?

[Aptorian]

Tarr;292394 said:

I really like how SE has gone off in a different direction on things like magic and dragons, but he does not seem to do the same with demons...

Tay summons a lord of the Galyan who is a lot more powerful then Tay so how come he can force him to do what he wants?

We get a look at where some of the demons are coming from in MT and it's a world similar to Wu, yet for some reason humans can summon demons from their world and the demons can't do the same...

Plus why can't somebody in theory summon a tiste andii to do their bidding, thus avoiding the trouble of having to kill them?

Is there something I'm missing or has this been explained elsewhere/or not?

Before we start the discussion lets just remember that we know very little and the rest is forum speculation.

When we're talking about demon summoning, we're mostly talking about some strange warren/world called Aral Gamelon.

The Kenrylalala, Galayan, and Korvala seem to come from there. The demon from MoI, I believe it was called a Sirith, suggests that Grey Frogs people also come from Aral Gamelon.

What is up with this world or warren we don't know. My personal theory is that Aral Gamelon is the closest we come to a fully developed, independant, Wu-like world with it's own civilizations, gods, etc. that isn't an aspected magical warren.

So how do mages manage to summon these beasts or humanoids from another world? My theory is that the Aral Gamelon warren magic that people like Tay and bauchelin use, functions as some kind of siphon, opening a wormhole between the two worlds, and possibly drags, maybe lures things into it.

Here is where we're getting into pure speculation, but control of a demon doesn't necissarily have to depend on one being more powerfull than what you're trying to drag through the eye of the needle. Not to say Tay isn't possibly as powerfull as a Galayan Lord, he could be, but enslaving or binding a demon could be done through many means.

1: Earn their trust or gain a favor, for example by saving their life like Loric does in HoC

2: Strike some kind of deal, possibly with an even more powerfull demonlord. Like what the Edur did with the Kenrylalala royalty. Or like how the Aptorian demons have their own lords.

3: Enslave them through trickery, power or skill. This is what I'm guessing Bauchelin does. Prepare some kind of elaborate, shit crazy ritual designed to bind the power of a creature, kind of like a finnest, then pull the demon through the portal and straight onto your pentagram ritual mojo thingy.

The third option is how you would enslave a demon more powerfull than yourself against its will.

To answer the OPs last question... last, who says demons, who by the way seem like nothing but extra terrestrials, aren't summoning things from Wu? or out of the warrens that Wu use aswell?

[Mentalist]

to answer the point about Andii--we see several instances of Tiste Andii ghosts being forced to work for someone--from Rhulad's army's shadows to the Andii Ghosts that posess the Bhok'aralas and crew Spite's ship in tBH. why don't you summon a live one--well, Tiste no longer live int he Kurald warrens, with the exception of th eLiosan, but their warren is guarded.

[Tarr]

@Kud
I take your point about the tiste (but your examples are all dead) but what I meant is what about the founding races who are mostly humanoid, why can't you summon them? e.g. imass, Jaghut or Forkul Assail or even some dragons or other variations upon the scaley theme.

@Aptorian
You are just using examples from Aral Gameleon what about those from shadow or other worlds ( does anyone else find it strange how many races of demon live in Aral Gameleon? ), I like your idea's about how you bind them though as it is similar to what happened to Dejim Nebral.

As for humans being summoned, not only have we not seen it happen but if it could people would be less likely to summon demons when the returned demon can summon them and get payback or invade the human world like the K'chain. Although it would be fairer I just can't see it happening somehow on a sidenote perhaps that is what brought the K'chain to Wu in the first place vengance or a need to get away from the dragons.

[Mentalist]

Well, for starters, only ONE of the founding races is confirmed to have their own "home warren"--those are Jaghut, their now supposedly uninhabited home-warren is Omtose Phellack. and afawk, no human can access it to pull them out of it.
As per the second part (demons summoning humans), since we never see Aral AGmelon form the inside, we can't be sure they don't. the only way to know that they don't would be to have a demon PoV from inside Aral Gamelon. Plus, it's not really relevant tot he stroy of what's been happening so far.

[D'rek]

Perhaps it is tied to the way in which humans and other sentient races in Malazi-world use magic. They have the wondrous Paths which are gracile. Perhaps it is this,uh, gracility, that is needed to do something like enslave a creature like the demons we see.

Additionally, as to how the really powerful demons are captured, it's like a ladder. First you ensnare a little Aral Gamelon bunny rabbit, then you use your power combined with the bunny rabbit to capture a leopard, and so on. Eventually you have 40 Azalans, 60 Sirinth, 9000 Kenyll'rah, and it's time to capture a Galayn Lord or two. Of course the fun stuff happens when the summoner from Malazi-world tries to capture a summoner from Aral Gamelon, and it becomes an epic war of all their demon-servants locked in mortal combat.

[chthonian]

Aight, a few things. First off; humans can summon other humans, as Kalam does with Quick Ben, in the shaved knuckle scene in DG. I think there is also other examples of Quick Ben being summoned around, but thats the main one that I remember.

Secondly, Greyfrog talks of tyrants and gods amongst his people, so this as well as the Kenryll'ah demon's discussions with Trull, suggest that demons do have there own social heirachy, as well as gods and such. This suggests that aside from the CG's original world, Aral Gamelon is the closest thing to the Malazi-world there is (and sorry A'Karonys, I'm pinching Malazi-world from you, I like it better than Wu and Burn, tee-hee).

Thirdly, "demon" really only refers to something that isn't of your race. Its kinda like the word "alien". In my opinion this gives leave for demons to reside outside of Aral Gamelon and in other warrens. This isn't to say that they did/did not originally reside in Aral Gamelon though. Populations migrate. We all know that the warrens are all connected, so there isn't really anything to stop demons finding doorways between warrens and moving dimension.

Finally, Bauchelain binds demons with powerful magically invested items, such as the one on whatever demon attacks Quick Ben in MoI. I'm also going to suggest that Mockra is a way of binding demons though, although users of Mockra do not have the access to Aral Gamelon that people like Bauchelain do. No idea how Tayschrenn binds the Galaynn lord though, but there is alot to him that we do not yet know, and at some stage a full unveiling of his power (and maybe host of demons too, oO) is going to be required.

Hope this helps.

[Mentalist]

hmm
I largely agree, just thought I should correct a minor detail. Kalam doesn't "summon" QB. he communicates with QB and tells him to get his arse over to wherever Kalam may currently be.

[Ammanas]

chthonian;292502 said:

Finally, Bauchelain binds demons with powerful magically invested items, such as the one on whatever demon attacks Quick Ben in MoI. I'm also going to suggest that Mockra is a way of binding demons though, although users of Mockra do not have the access to Aral Gamelon that people like Bauchelain do. No idea how Tayschrenn binds the Galaynn lord though, but there is alot to him that we do not yet know, and at some stage a full unveiling of his power (and maybe host of demons too, oO) is going to be required.

Hope this helps.

Yeah, demon "binders" are almost as weird as finnest choices. ST/COT seem to go for smoky diamonds, like the ones Kalam used to escape the Deragoth in HoC. Tayschrenn seems to go for vials(QB in GoTM) and flasks(Lorn).

Hmm, I wonder if there is an Elder God for demons. Sechul Lath has a demonic ring to it, sorta.

[Mentalist]

she's suspected to be the "Knuckles" character though.. and he was clearly an FA...

[Zanth13]

Tarr;292467 said:

@Kud
I take your point about the tiste (but your examples are all dead) but what I meant is what about the founding races who are mostly humanoid, why can't you summon them? e.g. imass, Jaghut or Forkul Assail or even some dragons or other variations upon the scaley theme.

@Aptorian
You are just using examples from Aral Gameleon what about those from shadow or other worlds ( does anyone else find it strange how many races of demon live in Aral Gameleon? ), I like your idea's about how you bind them though as it is similar to what happened to Dejim Nebral.

As for humans being summoned, not only have we not seen it happen but if it could people would be less likely to summon demons when the returned demon can summon them and get payback or invade the human world like the K'chain. Although it would be fairer I just can't see it happening somehow on a sidenote perhaps that is what brought the K'chain to Wu in the first place vengance or a need to get away from the dragons.

No… Aral Gameleon is the warren of demons why should anyone be surprised at the number of creatures there.

A bunch of good points have been brought up.... also a way to keep a demon secured is black mail, 'ever want to go home again you will do my bidding."

The CG was summoned and bound....

If you can make a link (which might be harder to do when you reside in the same world as a person) I don’t think summoning them to you would be impossible... or vice versa, that is what QB and Tayschrenn seem to do...

Plus ST "summoned" QB...

I don’t see any problem with the summoning system SE has set up... we just don’t know allot about it...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

What I like about the demons is that just cause they're demons doesn't mean they're evil. Know what I mean?

I suppose you could find demons from Chaos.... and there's a reference to a Khalibaral demon in MT, the demon trapped under the ice, i think...

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Tarr;292467 said:

does anyone else find it strange how many races of demon live in Aral Gameleon?

Not really- I mean, so far we've seen what, 5 different types there?

Then look at the different species on Burn/Wu/Whatever- Imass and the like (Barghast etc), normal humans, Jaghut, FA, KCN, KCCM, Tiste of various sorts, not to mention the different types of less intelligent animals that people from other worlds may be able to communicate with. Seems perfectly consistent to me.

[Tarr]

No what I meant was that all the demons in the other worlds are so different to one another like the azalan is different from the aptorian, while nearly everything in Wu is humanoid (this is of course not counting animals), while I am not saying it couldn't happen it just seems that the two places we've heard demons come from are full of demons that are nothing like each other and this is one of the stereotypes I was reffering to.

"Secondly, Greyfrog talks of tyrants and gods amongst his people, so this as well as the Kenryll'ah demon's discussions with Trull, suggest that demons do have there own social heirachy, as well as gods and such. This suggests that aside from the CG's original world, Aral Gamelon is the closest thing to the Malazi-world there is"

When did I dispute that?

I like Aptorians third explanation the best as it seems to fit with what we have seen of demons or other creatures being bound to a purpose, it's just that all we ever hear of is humans binding demons (not even demons binding demons).
I began to think it may just be limited to humans as no one else does it (not even Loric he had to make a deal with Greyfog) and I really think the tyrants of other races would if they could.
But against Aptorians theory is that the lord of the Galyan is a magic user, why can't he unravel the spells binding him? He seems more powerful than Tay to me so what is going on?

[chthonian]

Tarr;292895 said:

When did I dispute that?

It was never disputed, and I never said it was. I was just bringing to the board my knowledge of the other realms and there social/heirachial structures, and what I've gathered from the books. =D

[Sinisdar Toste]

Tarr;292895 said:

I like Aptorians third explanation the best as it seems to fit with what we have seen of demons or other creatures being bound to a purpose, it's just that all we ever hear of is humans binding demons (not even demons binding demons).
I began to think it may just be limited to humans as no one else does it (not even Loric he had to make a deal with Greyfog) and I really think the tyrants of other races would if they could.

well people forget, theres kenryll'ah demons and kenyll'rah. cant quite remember which is which but one of them has the other either enslaved or subject to them. in MT lilac, trulls friend is one of the peasant ones and the two princes that kill serenity are the royals.

[chthonian]

Sinisdar Toste;293015 said:

well people forget, theres kenryll'ah demons and kenyll'rah. cant quite remember which is which but one of them has the other either enslaved or subject to them. in MT lilac, trulls friend is one of the peasant ones and the two princes that kill serenity are the royals.

I think thats more of a tryanical rule of one species over another, not so much of a "summon and enslave" case.

[Sinisdar Toste]

thats most likely the only type of binding demons could have over each other. at least among the ones that live in aral gamelon. since theyre not summoning anything. could a azalan demon of shadow summon and enslave kenyll'rah? who knows.

[Tehol Beddict]

I myself think that the demons are summoned in a way akin to the Crippled God: some powerful, weedy, pimply mage enslaves a Demon through a complex ritual (Satanism, anyone? ). Using this, this mage drags said demon to his own world. This could possibly be done using trickery, sheer power, or candy (bribes). Then, to get more demons, if this mage wants more of the same demon, extortion. Here, I am assuming that these demons have a tighter community than us, so they are probably more prone to extortion. Since warrens are also referred to as realms (e.g. Kurald Emuralahn, Kurald Galain, etc.), these mages can be see as child abducters or aliens. This, combined with a slight possibility that the demons are weaker in a few ways (for instance, more prone to trust, curious, etc.), this would make enslaving a demon easier. For the Tiste part, the Tiste are often called the 'First', when Mother Dark and Father Light created the Andii, Liosan and Edur, respectivley, they could have a higher will than the demons. Plus, the Tiste are all Elder, which is part of the Holds, which is part of the world of MbotF. So, I'm assuming they are immune to enslavement via summoning, at least while alive. If you can sort through my logic, hope it clears some stuff out. Cheers:D:p