[Lisheo]

I get the feeling that it was before Rake got Dragnipur, because it was before the Edur and Andii invaded Wu. And Scabby did something to Andarist to fill him with that bitterness.
I think that no one has the will for Vengeance, even Rake disowned it after all, and in theory its more dangerous than Dranipur, after all, if just about anyone could use it, then Rake would never have left it alone, because then it would have come back and bit him in the ass. It strikes me that Rake giving Andarist Vengeance might even have been an insult "poor little brother, here, have this toy I made earlier. Its not like you can use it", so I reckon Andarist probably found it.
I wonder does Dassem have that singular willpower? Is he so focused that Vengeance will save him from his "unspeakable fatal confrontation" mentioned in the synopsis?
I for one hope we see more of Andarist.

[Aptorian]

Lisheo;292271 said:

I get the feeling that it was before Rake got Dragnipur, because it was before the Edur and Andii invaded Wu. And Scabby did something to Andarist to fill him with that bitterness.
I think that no one has the will for Vengeance, even Rake disowned it after all, and in theory its more dangerous than Dranipur, after all, if just about anyone could use it, then Rake would never have left it alone, because then it would have come back and bit him in the ass. It strikes me that Rake giving Andarist Vengeance might even have been an insult "poor little brother, here, have this toy I made earlier. Its not like you can use it", so I reckon Andarist probably found it.
I wonder does Dassem have that singular willpower? Is he so focused that Vengeance will save him from his "unspeakable fatal confrontation" mentioned in the synopsis?
I for one hope we see more of Andarist.

See we have very different views on this.

First off Dragnipur is in no way an inferior weapon to Vengeance/Grief. Besides in theory being able to kill with a none-lethal wound it is not just a weapon you pick up. When it is used the force of it's power being unleashed is enough to drive people to their knee's and strike fear in mortal hearts. All this is seen in GotM and MoI.

Not anyone can use vengeance but I'm willing to believe that when Andarist originally settled as the guardian of Drift Avalii, and the keeper of the sword, there was more to him.

Rake has never seemed to type to be intentionally malicious. He may well have mocked Osserc and Killy, but the man is not intentionally cruel. His cold indifference for his brothers fate is as much a cause of the Draconean blood as the his ascendant life.

And if we're to believe Feather Witches tile divinations, Vengeance may still come back to bite him in the ass.

[magicrealist]

I thin Dassem is the ONLY one who has the will for that sword. His hatred toward Hood would give him the will power needed.

[Lisheo]

Im not dissing Andarist's power there, Im saying that NO ONE has the willpower to use Vengeance to its true extent. The point Id like to make about Dragnipur versus Vengeance is that someone who can truly use Vengeance wont even get wounded non-lethally.
I dunno about Rake, while he might not be malicious, I get the feeling that he would hold some in serious contempt, such as Kallor. Maybe he hated Andarist that much after he renounced his draconean powers?

[Aptorian]

magicrealist;292276 said:

I thin Dassem is the ONLY one who has the will for that sword. His hatred toward Hood would give him the will power needed.

I wouldn't say that, I think lesser men or creatures could handle the sword. Andarist failed because he was broken, struck with the same apathy or distaste for life that seem to afflict many Andii.

Dassem is probably the most suited to wield the sword but lots of others come to mind, among them the likes of Icarium, Rake, Ruin, Kallor, Karsa, every single Seguleh over initiaton level, etc.

[Lisheo]

I think Karsa could probably wield Vengeance, actually. And perhaps Kalam might have been able to as well.

[Venerus]

I just made a connection -- At one point, Draconus suggests that Rake might not be wielding Dragnipur anymore (well, "carrying the sword"), and Paran is all confused. I'm betting now that was a reference to Rake putting Vengeance down/his habit of leaving behind awesome sword(s).

So my guess is, he left it lying around and Darist just picked it up.

[Lisheo]

Ooo, you might be right there actually. I like yer idea. Have rep.

[Mentalist]

hmm. that reference refers to when rake can't be reached by paran's MotD powers in MoI. he looks fro Rake, but ends up in Dragnipur.I wouldn't read too much into that line

re: timeline
I'm fairly certain that Rake got the sword after the Fall of CG, which occured much, much later then the Tiste invasion of MT/RG prologues. after all, it was only after the fall, and the cursing of Kallor that Draconus alters the sword to remove its "finality".

[Sparkimus]

From what I've gathered about ascendancy, it doesn't seem to start until you leave the mortal realm. Take the BBs, the entire squad ascended, but that seemed to mean absolutely nothing until they were killed and then they were given power. Rake, Ruin and Karsa may be ascendants, but they are still in the mortal realm so that has not taken effect. I would imagine had Bloodeye killed Ruin outright, he would have been given the power of ascendancy and therefore become too powerful for him to deal with, thus the binding of the soul.

If that is entirely wrong (very possible) then I would refer back to "the balance" when Cotillion is talking with Edgewalker and the three chained dragons in TB. He mentions killing the CG to which the dragon asks "you would shatter the balance?" leading me to believe that killing Gods/Ascendants/elemental forces all have dire effects on the world. Hence all the chained and imprisoned ascendants in the Azath, shadow realm and every other realm for that matter.

[Ammanas]

Venerus;292320 said:

I just made a connection -- At one point, Draconus suggests that Rake might not be wielding Dragnipur anymore (well, "carrying the sword"), and Paran is all confused. I'm betting now that was a reference to Rake putting Vengeance down/his habit of leaving behind awesome sword(s).

So my guess is, he left it lying around and Darist just picked it up.

Maybe, Darist said Rake "found one(Dragnipur) better suited to his nature"

As for the meaning of what Draconus said to Paran--i took that to mean the only way you know if Rake has Dragnipur is more souls coming to pull the wagon. Since no fresh souls had appeared in awhile, Draconus could assume Rake had discarded Dragnipur.

[Mentalist]

Sparkimus;292371 said:

From what I've gathered about ascendancy, it doesn't seem to start until you leave the mortal realm. Take the BBs, the entire squad ascended, but that seemed to mean absolutely nothing until they were killed and then they were given power. Rake, Ruin and Karsa may be ascendants, but they are still in the mortal realm so that has not taken effect. I would imagine had Bloodeye killed Ruin outright, he would have been given the power of ascendancy and therefore become too powerful for him to deal with, thus the binding of the soul.

If that is entirely wrong (very possible) then I would refer back to "the balance" when Cotillion is talking with Edgewalker and the three chained dragons in TB. He mentions killing the CG to which the dragon asks "you would shatter the balance?" leading me to believe that killing Gods/Ascendants/elemental forces all have dire effects on the world. Hence all the chained and imprisoned ascendants in the Azath, shadow realm and every other realm for that matter.

there are multiple paths to Ascendancy. The one Trach took is but one of them. BBs are special b/c they were blessed by MotD + the Tanno song.

[Sparkimus]

kud13;292434 said:

there are multiple paths to Ascendancy. The one Trach took is but one of them. BBs are special b/c they were blessed by MotD + the Tanno song.

Yes, but since they've ascended shouldn't Quick/Kalam/Fiddler be able to draw on some power for themselves? Or is it with them, they first must die to become ascendants? <--That would sort of support my claim.

Also, Treach was the first hero, but was he born into ascendancy like Rake, or did he earn it?

[Mentalist]

i think he earned it. Can't be sure of it, ofc
As for the remaining BBs--they've all been blessed. The living and the dead. Everyone that Paran knew (and he had to memorize their history) and everyone that Fiddler knew (he was there from the beginning)

[Venerus]

According to Sormo (or was it Nil? Or Nether?) Gessler and Stormy were "on the verge of ascendancy" during the chain of dogs. Then, later, we learn from Beak that it's because they were baked in the fires of Tellann, "that dragons use to be strong" or however he puts it in RG. They're not dead, and they didn't do anything to earn it as near as I can tell. They're just. You know. Ascendants.


And I think there's a quote kicking around that the BB's have to die for the Tanno song to be complete, I think it's in HoC, but I can't find it and so instead I'm gonna take a nap.

[D'rek]

Sparkimus;292439 said:

Yes, but since they've ascended shouldn't Quick/Kalam/Fiddler be able to draw on some power for themselves? Or is it with them, they first must die to become ascendants? <--That would sort of support my claim.

A Tanno spirit song needs to have an ending. A recurring bit in HoC was that the song was playing endlessly in Fidd/Kalam's head. Once the BBs did their thing in Raraku, that was the end of the song and they ascended via the power of the MotD's blessing and the Tanno song. But they couldn't do so until the song was ended.

Presumably, Fiddler, Kalam, QB, Picker, etc. won't get access to any of the BB's powers of ascension until they've ended their own stories/songs.

[Optimus Prime]

Did Rake kill Draconus just to get Dragnipur? We don't know. Perhaps Draconus pissed Rake off (he was legendarily cruel, don't forget) and getting the sword was a bonus. Perhaps Rake thought he could do a better job of wielding the sword, better even than it's maker. There is so much we don't know about the history of this universe, but as Apt said earlier, SE is slowly but surely revealing more and more. I get the feeling we'll get the full story of Rake, Draconus and Dragnipur in this book (obviously )

As for Vengeance, we need more info on the three brothers. Maybe Rake gave it to Andarist just so someone else wouldn't get it and use it's power fully.

[Mentalist]

all we know is, Envy stood aside when Rake Dragnipur'ed Draconus (see MoI, end-ish)

[Urko Schmurko]

I still look at it as Rake and Ruin being at the same level of power and Ruin couldn't be taken out by Scabi. I still figure Rake will not survive to the end of this series, but he'll sacrifice himself for a greater good...as a matter of fact, I'm not sure that MD or the KG warren will survive to the end of the series.