[Sinisdar Toste]

well scabby could destroy ruins body, somewhat, but not his soul. same thing with the killing of scabby, because of the ritual his powerful spirit would just hang around and piss people off, so a finnest was fashioned. also scabby was basically beat to shit before the final blow. broken wing, leg, ribs etc

[iRFNA]

I don't think someone like rake or ruin can be killed by just some random knife in the back. It's pretty apparent that scabandari could not kill silchas ruin, even when weakened and taken by surprise with preparation (whatever magic dagger he used). Keep in mind, far "lesser" characters are even immune to such a fate, such as l'oric. He gets stabbed in the back by an ordinary dagger when speaking to korbolo dom with apparently no harmful side effects. It takes the death enchanted dagger later on to give him a fatal wound.

Sorry guys, but not everyone can just be randomly killed by some mundane dagger in the hand of whoever. Just cause trull, a normal, mortal tiste edur, got killed with a backstabbing doesn't mean the son of darkness can be (without a great deal of potent magical aid).

[Venerus]

Sinisdar Toste;290696 said:

well scabby could destroy ruins body, somewhat, but not his soul. same thing with the killing of scabby, because of the ritual his powerful spirit would just hang around and piss people off, so a finnest was fashioned. also scabby was basically beat to shit before the final blow. broken wing, leg, ribs etc

Yeah but... Scabandari's soul would have stayed around *because* of the ritual, according to Mael anyway, not because he's tough. Killy is all "awww man!' when she finds out, so it seems like before she got that piece of info, she was confident she could kill Scabs no probs, like for-real dead not just beat-up dead.

Scabs, on the other hand, doesn't think he can kill Ruin, even though the ritual hasn't begun -- so it must be for some other reason. Even after Scabs has disabled Ruin, he doesn't keep beating the shit out of Ruin until he's all busted up, he ends up having to take him to an Azath.

Not that there's anything inconsistent or weird going on -- the easy explanation is that Killy is a badass dragon killer. Isn't that kind of her point, anyway? Doesn't someone actually say that's her purpose, to kill dragons? I'd put money down that Killy is more powerful than Scabs and Ruin, or she's designed to combat their weaknesses.

I mean, if Killy had gotten to Scabs before the ritual was nearly complete/complete "enough", or if she'd decided she hated Ruin, I would guess she could have killed both.

[Imperium Corruo]

Reading this thread it struck me as more likely than Rake being killed unceremoniously by a dagger in the back is the possibility that Rake is somehow killed by Dragnipur itself.

That's poetic justice indeed.

other than that, I'm inclined to think Karsa could beat/kill Rake rather handily as long as Rake is not in his dragon form. If that were the case, I think the odds are in Rake's favor, but my man Karsa has surprised us before, amirite?

As to whether these ascendants can be killed by mere bodily harm, I'm inclined to think enough bodily harm could do it, yet significantly more than what would normally kill a mortal. Thus knives in the back won't kill Silcas, yet Karsa cleaving Rake entirely in two with his 6 foot long stone sword would do nicely.

However given this analysis, Scabby's words to Silcas that he does not have the power to kill Silcas is vexing. I don't think it is necessarily attributable to the ritual.

I will also note that the Bonecasters in bear form appear to have killed Menador's sister in a relatively mundane manner with great physical harm. I don't see why she would be any any less likely to resist bodily death than Ruin

[Zanth13]

Venerus;290570 said:

Gothos didn't finish until at least after Scabs stabbed Ruin. From MT prologue:



Moments after that comment (the ritual is still beginning) Scabs stabs Ruin. And Scabandari is unable to kill Ruin. From MT, Scabandari's words:



Unable to -- not because of the ritual, but specifically because Ruin is "too powerful" for that.



The answer is a very emphatic "yes" although why Mael asked Gothos to make the ritual the way he did is still undisclosed. Mael and Gothos, from MT prologue:



No reason given, except that Mael can see the future and knows something about what's to come. Given how chatty he is throughout MT about there being no Hold of Death, and how there should be etc etc, and since the reason for that is Gothos' ritual... maybe he wanted to deny death for..... some reason? Or maybe it has to do with Scabandari, the Finnest, and the Refugium? I dunno, just wild guesses on my part. Since we don't know what it was that Mael saw, I figure that'll be fodder for books 9 and 10.

Had a thought that may or may not be valid.

Mael wanted the ritual to take place so he would have a place to chill (pun inteneded) so he didnt end up like K'rul...

the ritual froze death and stopped time, it let the holds stay in place so maybe it allowed Mael to stay in place to without losing any power


oh and I agree, I doubt Rake could be killed by any Hobo in the street.

You dont live as long as him with the normal limitations of mortals.

crazy Apt.

[S Ruin]

Obviously Rake can be killed but I just want people to keep in mind what Rake is capable of -This guy killed draconus - an elemental. For all intents and purposes, Draconus is on the same level as krul and rake whooped his arse.

He was able to somehow handle Kilimandaros and dump her in an Azath House. Kilimandaros people - this is someone who kills dragons for fun and rake was ready for her.

He was able to chain 3 pure eleint dragons (he could have had help from other andii though) but the those dragons were clearly scared big time of rake the way they spoke about him to Cotillon.

In NOK, when the power was approaching Tay, Obo and Kriska'a Aunty, Tay exclaims that who on Wu could have such power (he was in awe of that power) and he mentions osseric. We all know that rake has whooped osseric before so he is his equal at least in power.

So many more examples like the way quick ben totally fears rake and how kallor fears him. Bear in mind Kallor looks to be not scared of anyone at all, he always seems to bear everyone he encounters with contempt - Krul, Draconus, NightChill, conversations about the crippled God, quick ben, whiskey jack. But he is nearly pissing himself when rake is around (possilbly he fears draginpur more actually). Infact the only other person he seems to respect as well is brood

As someone said, if he gets killed it will be in a very unexpected fashion. I for one hopes he is not killed off as I think he is the best fictional character ever created by an author

[Lisheo]

No one is gonna kill Rake in one-on-one combat, in fairness... That'd be too cliched for SE, in my mind. Its far more likely that Rake will be forced to give up his own life in some horrible tragic choice...
On another note, maybe its Krul thats gonna die in the book?

[Urko Schmurko]

I like this post. Rake is one of my fav's. I don't think he'll survive the series though. I'm not saying he's gonna die. I figure he's too powerful to succumb to a mortal death. Like Silchas when he was stabbed (or an even better example is Raest back in GoM when he was torn up so badly I think SE wrote something like it was only OP holding Raest together, but that Raest would fabricate a new body once reunited with his Finnest...meaning Raest wasn't even at his strongest and couldn't be killed by being physically torn apart), Rake can't be killed.
But he can still be removed, either by an Azath house or his life's spirit could be used as a force to permanently seal the rent at Morn. Lot's of different things could happen to him. However he goes, I figure it'll be for a noble cause, not dispensed so indignantly like Trull was.

[Tarr]

About Killy killing scabi, what you are forgetting is that he killed the royal line to get his position so he may not have been a god at the time ( I'm not sure on this point).

He may have killed the royal line but that does not mean he is suddenly the legitamate ruler of shadow, there may have been many claimants to the throne, after all if he ruled all the edur I would have expected his army would be bigger.

KE was shattered at the time which may have prevented him becoming a god, and we don't even know if he was an ascendant, does being an elient make you one?

[Ayrin]

iRFNA;290710 said:

Keep in mind, far "lesser" characters are even immune to such a fate, such as l'oric. He gets stabbed in the back by an ordinary dagger when speaking to korbolo dom with apparently no harmful side effects.

No, he wasn't immune to the dagger. I recently read this, and what it says is something on the lines of "the dagger could not pierce his inner protective layers of kurald thyrrlan" (don't have the book here, but it is in the end of house of chains if someone wishes to take a look). So, he isn't immune, he is just wearing more armor than it seems.

Another interesting question regarding the killing of gods... Why is Fener in so much trouble? We have seen a rather large bunch of other gods running around in the mortal realm (Cotillion, Mael, K'rul, Shadowthrone... Rake is considered a god by the inhabitants of bluerose if I'm not mistaken) and they don't seem overly bothered about it.

Of course, there are some rather extreme circumstances surrounding the fall of Fener, but why is he in so much trouble? Is he actually fully cut off from his warren?

[Obdigore]

The dagger against l'oric was also 'where his heart would be were he human'.

Just FYI.

[Ayrin]

No, that was the second one.

[SiriusL]

The Fener example is interesting. Supposedly Fener was pushed out of his realm (and his place as the God of War) into the mortal realm, which meant he could be killed. That rather implies that he couldn't be killed before, doesn't it?

Also, what about Nightchill? She chose to become mortal, and paid the price for it. Again, does that mean she couldn't be killed otherwise?

Cotillion: "How do you kill an elemental force?"

[D'rek]

Fener is not only in the mortal plane, he is trapped in it. Unlike Cotillion and others, he cannot easily return to his warren. He may have no access to it at all and is stuck with only his mortal skill-set. Additionally, having had many, many worshippers his descent is widely known. Among Fener's worshippers there are corrupt and evil folk who would use the knowledge they have of his Reve to trap him with an altar or some such.

Could Fener be killed before? Probably, it would just be very, very, very difficult. You'd have to confront him in his own warren, of which he has complete mastery. There'd be no sneaking up on him, no hiding your motives or abilities from him in such a place...

[Ammanas]

A said:

Could Fener be killed before? Probably, it would just be very, very, very difficult. You'd have to confront him in his own warren, of which he has complete mastery. There'd be no sneaking up on him, no hiding your motives or abilities from him in such a place...

Sounds like the perfect job for Icarium!

[lobo the wolfman]

On the 'Can Rake be killed' subject, if the elder gods are the first born of Mother Dark, then Rake and the Tiste Andii would come a close second. Wouldn't that make him just a small step below being a elder god himself? a role he has refused time and time again.

I for one don't think he be killed, weakened, maybe his mortal boby can be destroyed but outright killed? sorry i don't see it.

[iRFNA]

Ayrin;291462 said:

No, he wasn't immune to the dagger. I recently read this, and what it says is something on the lines of "the dagger could not pierce his inner protective layers of kurald thyrrlan"

I never said immune? I just said to apparently no harmful side effects (atleast according to his POV, he didn't seem to be weakened by it). I was using that as an example of how others of greater more power could easily have, as you put it, that "extra armor"... And in their case, it may be able to withstand significantly more than just a dagger.

Edit: After a reread, I noticed I also said "immune to such a fate", as in "they can't be killed with a dagger". Not immune to the dagger completely.

[Mentalist]

hmm
I believe ONE of the fundamental points that SE's bringing across to us is :EVERYONE can be killed. No excepions. That is what makes his world so much more realistic, because he literally brings the old expression "the bigger they are, the hared they fall" to life. We've seen numerous examples of this thoughtout the books. Rake can be killed same as nayone else. it will just take the right people, the rith place, time and conditions.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Urko Schmurko;291059 said:

I like this post. Rake is one of my fav's. I don't think he'll survive the series though. I'm not saying he's gonna die. I figure he's too powerful to succumb to a mortal death. Like Silchas when he was stabbed (or an even better example is Raest back in GoM when he was torn up so badly I think SE wrote something like it was only OP holding Raest together, but that Raest would fabricate a new body once reunited with his Finnest...meaning Raest wasn't even at his strongest and couldn't be killed by being physically torn apart), Rake can't be killed.
But he can still be removed, either by an Azath house or his life's spirit could be used as a force to permanently seal the rent at Morn. Lot's of different things could happen to him. However he goes, I figure it'll be for a noble cause, not dispensed so indignantly like Trull was.

I'm not so sure. If Silanah, four (five?) other dragons, and the power of Starvald Demelain wasn't enough to annhilate Raest, could Rake do it?

Mind you, Raest's Finnest was missing at the time.

[Lisheo]

Rake could. We have never seen Rake truly let rip, remember. We have only seen him cool and constraining his power. I really dont think the other five eleint Andii are any match for him, not in pure power. Rake is an ascendant, and added to that, hes Knight Of Darkness. Silanah is the Dragon of Thyrr, but does that make her a match for the guy who is CHAMPION of the many powers of Galain? He must be Ruins match at least, and Ruin was a scary, scary guy.