[Aptorian]

I haven't liked any of the Captain America films and I highly doubt they can do the Civil War event justice.

But this could still be good, right?

... Right?

[QuickTidal]

Pssst.

http://forum.malazan...ost__p__1210389

[Aptorian]

Pssh! That thread is old news. This is a brand new shiny Captain America thread! Get it while it's still hot luke warm!

[Abyss]

The new trailer is INSANE.

FUCKING.

INSANE.

[Aptorian]

Not sure if excited or just extremely sarcastic.

This post has been edited by Apt: 25 November 2015 - 05:48 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

Apt, on 25 November 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

I haven't liked any of the Captain America films

I've tried reading this line like a dozen times and I still can't make any sense out of it.

[Aptorian]

Well, lets have it out then.

Spoiler

The first film is just plain awful. I am not sure how anyone could defend that garbage.

The first 20 minutes or so are great, very well set up origin story for Cap. Then they make him a fucking PR guy doing stage shows and I hated the person who okay'ed that script. Bad stuff happens and magically he becomes a great soldier. Which was poorly presented. Then it begins jumping around, telling now showing, that Cap is not a hero and he has a posse of idiots that are a shadow of the Howling Commando's from the comics. It just pushes through any kind of scenes or dialogue that could make Cap memorable or seem like the beacon of freedom and democracy he is supposed to be. I guess you could argue that it's "Young Cap" before he becomes a legend, but I just never saw any evidence of the All American Hero.

It's an awful film. And an insult to Captain America.

2nd film actually does a much better job of showing how powerful Captain America is and displays his reputation through the way other character act near him. I liked that. But this is also a story about SHIELD and they completely shit all over that organization. They never managed to sell me on the idea that SHIELD could so easily be infiltrated, that Hydra could ever take over America or anything like it, nor how easily the political ties could be severed. Why the fuck does Fury go under cover? He's the best suited to save the mess for fucks sake.

Overall I think both films lack depth of character, the writing is poor, the plots are dumb and I think they shit on the Comic book universe, which I know is par for the course apparently but I don't have to like it.

[QuickTidal]

I will hear no bad words about CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLIDER. It is as close to a perfect film as Marvel has done so far. In fact, CAP 2 and GOTG are pretty much the pinnacle of what the MCU has achieved so far.

The Russo Brothers are an amazing writing directing duo.

And bullet points on your complaints about CAP 2 (which, BTW needs no spoiler tags...Cap 1 came out four years ago, and CAP 2 nearly two years ago)

- SHIELD's infiltration happened at its inception. There is nothing to sell you. It's not like it happened all of the sudden... CAP 2 shows you that when the OSS changed over into SHIELD officially in the late 1940's, they were unknowingly already employing Hydra agents within their ranks...from there all it takes is time and perseverance to make the infiltration (65+ years later) complete enough that high ranking World Gov't types are in with Hydra...and those who aren't realized too late.

- Fury goes undercover because other than a VERY small pool of people in his circle, he cannot trust anyone. As of the events of CAP 2 ANYONE could be Hydra in disguise. Fury can trust like three people...and he doesn't even trust Steve fully...not really. The organization he's been in charge of for decades is found to be rotten to the core, and people he thought were friends and allies have been working against him the entire time. So he can't "save the mess" really. Best he can do is take the ones he can trust, and aim THEM at the mess.

CAP 1 is not great, but it's not terrible either. CAP 2 is SCADS better.

[amphibian]

As for the criticisms of Captain America being used as a wartime prop to cheering audiences - THAT MAKES TOTAL SENSE BECAUSE HE'S CALLED CAPTAIN AMERICA AND DRESSED UP IN ALL THAT ICONOGRAPHY.

Aaaargh.

Do you not remember Flags of Our Fathers or Armor, in which real soldiers go on PR tours and hate it? They were/are real things that happened/happen today.

For what it's worth, I agree that they didn't really develop Captain's in-person specialness, tactics, and personal convictions that makes him unique.

[Abyss]

Apt, on 25 November 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

I haven't liked any of the Captain America films

You are dead to me.

QuickTidal, on 25 November 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

I will hear no bad words about CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLIDER. It is as close to a perfect film as Marvel has done so far...CAP 1 is not great, but it's not terrible either. CAP 2 is SCADS better.

Seconded on all points.

amphibian, on 25 November 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

As for the criticisms of Captain America being used as a wartime prop to cheering audiences - THAT MAKES TOTAL SENSE BECAUSE HE'S CALLED CAPTAIN AMERICA AND DRESSED UP IN ALL THAT ICONOGRAPHY.
...

That was the entire point of the character way back when. The concept has changed and evolved, but at the start, as a comic and as a concept, Cap was the frikkin american flag given life.

[D'rek]

I didn't have any major problems with any of them, but the first Captain America skipped from the jail-break to the train scene and final assault way too fast - we basically went straight from the origin story to the final boss fight without ever seeing an average day in the life of Captain except for a too-quick montage. Likewise PeggyXSteve could've used some middle part there, too. Red Skull was kind of schizo, too ("I hide my fake face" 2 second later: "I take off my fake face because I'm so proud!").

CAmerica #2 had more fun pieces to juggle around and we didn't already know how it would end, so that was fun, but there was a lot of things that barely made sense (the german robot guy got captured by the Americans and then later somehow retrieved Bucky's body but was still within SHIELD? They let Capt go just so they can immediately try and capture him? BWidow could impersonate random people this whole time? Why did the computer of a boat contain no other information except to point to an empty Hydra archive with robot german guy?). It was still fun, well-paced and had good character dynamics regardless, IMO.

[worry]

The Cap movies were the only major non-first-Avengers movies that were truly satisfying for me, and this looks very much in the same vein.

[Abyss]

Briar King, on 26 November 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

... even though Black Panther is in this movie he's still not cast for the person who is going to be in BP movie. I find that strange. I wonder if he is just going to be in a 1 quick non speaking scene in CW?

there's a suggestion that some of the countries who have been victimized by the Winter Soldier sent representatives to help bring him in. Panther is Wakanda's.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

worry, on 25 November 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

The Cap movies were the only major non-first-Avengers movies that were truly satisfying for me, and this looks very much in the same vein.

This.

I still enjoy Cap 1 for what it is (although D'rek's right, it lacked a middle) and I enjoy Hugo Weaving as the baddie - does he make total sense? No, but he's fun to watch and gets some great dialogue. That and I'm just completely taken on the idea of Hugo Weaving being an ax-crazy German scientist.

The Winter Solider is hands down the best MCU film to date, and I thnk the only one that has a chance of knocking it off top spot will be Civil War - none of the other non-Avengers movies come close (Thor 1 and the Iron Mans are fun, but not on the same level) and the Avengers movies are fun but a bit too full and frenetic to achieve the sort of film Winter Soldier is.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 26 November 2015 - 07:08 AM

[Cause]

I have always felt cap 1 was just a movie rushed through production so it would be ready before avengers 1. The movie is horrendous!

[Aptorian]

You are all out of your mind.

Captain America in these films is a shadow of the Cap we see in the comics. Then again, this is based on Ultimate Captain America who was a raging dickhead so I guess it could be worse.

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 26 November 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

I was watching Collider early and they were saying that even though Black Panther is in this movie he's still not cast for the person who is going to be in BP movie. I find that strange. I wonder if he is just going to be in a 1 quick non speaking scene in CW?

He is cast actually. It's Chadwick Boseman, he was announced back when the Phase 3 announcements went live, and I'm almost positive that he's the guy in the BP suit in Civil War, and will be the guy in the standalone Black Panther flick.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 November 2015 - 02:08 PM

[D'rek]

Apt, on 26 November 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

You are all out of your mind.

Captain America in these films is a shadow of the Cap we see in the comics. Then again, this is based on Ultimate Captain America who was a raging dickhead so I guess it could be worse.

Some of us have never read the comics! I think the only Marvel media I ever consumed before the MCU movies began was some of the 90s Spiderman cartoon...

[Aptorian]

Of course, and I get that the movie versions are meant for the consumption of the people who don't read comics. But, at least to me, Captain America much more than many other super heroes is a symbol. A walking embodiment of idealism. A man who's very presence makes people straighten up, pay attention, work harder, strive to be a better person. He's supposed to be this amalgamation of a perfect soldier and a wise leader. Not like Superman who is a god, but as a mortal man who's spent his life fighting for ideas like freedom, happiness, hope, etc.

The Captain America of the films is a younger man. I never get the impression that he is the sharpest person in the room, nor the best man, nor the most passionate. Much of the time he simply plays the role of "The Man out of Time" (to borrow a line from Fallout 4) instead of being the living memory of a better time.

[QuickTidal]

Apt, on 26 November 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

Of course, and I get that the movie versions are meant for the consumption of the people who don't read comics. But, at least to me, Captain America much more than many other super heroes is a symbol. A walking embodiment of idealism. A man who's very presence makes people straighten up, pay attention, work harder, strive to be a better person. He's supposed to be this amalgamation of a perfect soldier and a wise leader. Not like Superman who is a god, but as a mortal man who's spent his life fighting for ideas like freedom, happiness, hope, etc.

The Captain America of the films is a younger man. I never get the impression that he is the sharpest person in the room, nor the best man, nor the most passionate. Much of the time he simply plays the role of "The Man out of Time" (to borrow a line from Fallout 4) instead of being the living memory of a better time.

See, I FULLY got the "living memory of a better time" vibe from him when Coulson was obsessing over his collectible Cap cards. I also go it in CAP 2 throughout. I mean that entire movie is Cap standing up the the 2013 establishment and saying "Wait, wait...hold on. My generation fought for what we have and fought against the tyranny of the axis powers...and look at what you're doing to that memory...you're tarnishing that, you're becoming what we fought against and I won't have it."

He is only moderately derailed by the fact that Bucky shows back up and that throws Cap off his stride. But he very much is the man you are looking for....at least in CAP 2.