[Tattersail_]

This page amazes me with the thought that HO could be scum. This is where Blend and Bubba are active a lot. Also it says a lot that they are shifting blame elsewhere.

HiddenOne, on 03 December 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 03 December 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

HiddenOne, on 03 December 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 03 December 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

If someone doesn't start talking in 10 minutes,I will start spamming the thread with dead thread is dead till it's 10 pages long.

I'm gonna vote for EM, only scum holds town hostage with threats of annoying spam

Fucking low-poster.
I propose we eliminate him early on as both revenge and some kind of preventive strike against his sneakiness.

Remove Vote
Vote HO

pre-emptive OMGUS just because I question you, EM - painting me with the scum brush

I didn't even vote you yet

So this vote goes on HO, it starts a train. Then Bubba makes an entrance and immediately votes for Venge.

Bubba, on 03 December 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

If you people had managed to pull off a speed lynch of me before I had a chance to post (before game was officially supposed to start IIRC) you all would be playing the next month with My Little Pony avatars.

vote Veng

Some of these I quoted but I don't know why until I see the whole thing again. This one I think EM mentions and sticks with HO. Showing some things he does that could be scummy.

HiddenOne, on 03 December 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 03 December 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

Talking with oneself is very fun.
You guys should try it sometimes.
I see HO disappeared after being voted on.
BOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED.

Venge mentions HO's disappearing trick.

Tattersail, on 03 December 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 03 December 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 03 December 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Remove Vote

Vote Vengeance

He created the Bubba vote train wanting to lynch him before he got back. That is un town like. We would have no information from this lynch other than a CF.

It just disgusts me.

Funny how you where for it a couple of minutes ago. When you master didn't get on the train you suddenly decide to get off. Very interesting.

I knew you'd be back, willing to let the thread boil before coming on again eh?

You and HO partners. I call it now. Look at him disappear when EM voted for him

look at this coordinated precision - these two are obviously planning to try and turn everybody against me and increase their pseudo-credibility

Everybody knows the false accusations are for when people show up after you vote them, not when they leave

Blend buddies up to Bubba but is taking the heat out of the the thread. There is a bit of pressure building here but it gets defused with mentions of ponies.

Blend, on 03 December 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Bubba, on 03 December 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

If you people had managed to pull off a speed lynch of me before I had a chance to post (before game was officially supposed to start IIRC) you all would be playing the next month with My Little Pony avatars.

vote Veng

Heh, I almost wish we had done it... Playing Legend of Korra mafia with My Little Pony avatars would be hilarious!

Bubba, on 03 December 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Blend, on 03 December 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Bubba, on 03 December 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

If you people had managed to pull off a speed lynch of me before I had a chance to post (before game was officially supposed to start IIRC) you all would be playing the next month with My Little Pony avatars.

vote Veng

Heh, I almost wish we had done it... Playing Legend of Korra mafia with My Little Pony avatars would be hilarious!

I can make that happen........

[Tattersail_]

Blend latches on to what Azath said about Gust.

Blend, on 03 December 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Azathmaster, on 03 December 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Gusty hasnt gotten any attention yet. He's scum

That's actually a very good point. Why has everyone been ignoring Gusty?

This is where Gnaw jumps in and votes for HO.

Gnaw, on 03 December 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Remove Vote
Vote HiddenOne

Blend jumps onto that quickly.

Blend, on 03 December 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 03 December 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Remove Vote
Vote HiddenOne

A vote with no explanation? I think this is scummier than most of what's out there right now.

Then so does Bubba. Straight in with a Gnaw vote.

Bubba, on 03 December 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I have to say that vote Gnaw is the first really scum like thing I have seen today.

Remove vote, Vote Gnaw


I will be the first to put some pressure on you to explain.

Blend follows with a Gnaw vote. Now there are two trains HO and Gnaw. Masterly done by the scum team.

Blend, on 03 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 03 December 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

I talk too much. Going to try the lurker mode that others use so successfully.

Lurkers don't usually admit to being lurkers. And lurking is a known scum tactic. Why would you intentionally do something that looks scummy?

remove vote
vote Gnaw

Later on somewhere Bubba says that he is happy to let others build cases as he got a townie lynched. This is not the stuff of mafia legends. Rather than focus on a townie lynch he actually saved scum.

[Tattersail_]

Vote HO.

I that page clinches it for me. Blend attacked me for looking at day one interactions and said I was full of shit. Well he was the killer and I think I caught him due to his day one interactions. Next was Bubba the symp. Looking back with that in my mind and the fact that Blend was a killer it seems obvious they were protecting HO day one.

[Starling]

So, I'll start with Tatts.

Straight off, I don't think he's scum. This interaction was the first to jump out at me:

Tattersail, on 03 December 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

Blend, on 03 December 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 03 December 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 03 December 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

So far I see several good cases that I could get behind.

The EM case is strong and yet so is the Khell case. Both have a lot of merit in my book. But you know who really needs to be lynched. Bubba, it has been a while since he played mafia and what better way to welcome someone back into the warm mafia embrace then to lynch them before they can post.


Vote Bubba


Plus he is an admin so the hate and rage that would roll off of him would be impressive.

Ha ha, so cruel I love it!

Remove Vote

Vote Bubba

You're being kind of wanton with your votes, don't you think?

No. Later on in the day then maybe, but this early in the game I don't think so. I'd like to build up some trains, see how people react, see how agress and disagrees with people. see who is trying to hard or not taking the game seriously enough. I see what you are saying but i'd prefer a lot of people to be active, adding pressure, building cases. You get no where by staying silent

If Blend had been seriously concerned that Tatts, as his partner, was throwing lots of votes around, then this would have been kept off thread. Particularly at this stage of the game there was no need for distancing, and so this interaction looks like prodding from two people who are unconnected.

Later, Blend builds a case on Tatts:

Blend, on 06 December 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Alright, upon closer inspection, I can say that I'm a little more suspicious of Starling. Day 1, he didn't really participate much - a post asking Tats why he moved away from supicions of EM, then voting for HO cause he was suspicious of the train redirect. I personally thought the case on HO was crap, yesterday, so I wasn't terribly surprised when the train redirected. Venge was certainly acting a bunch more scummy, even if he did CF as inno.

The thing that bothers me, though, is his behaviour for this day. He basically spent the entire day trying to paint Tats as a symp. He votes Shin, accusing him of having redirected the train, when there was like a triple cross post (which, admittedly, I was a part of) that all moved the train from HO to Venge, and pushing the idea that Tats is Shin's symp. When Shin rebuffs the accusations, he backs off from the Shin attack, but maintains his suspicions of Tats being a symp. I think that Starling is, in fact, the symp, and that he's trying to paint Tats as a symp so that we'll disregard Tats as a possible killer, or that we'll let him slide thinking that he's a symp, so there's no point in voting him off.

I know this jives with my earlier statement about Tats not being dumb enough to kill someone as obviously linked to him as KL was, but, I dunno, Starling's behaviour just rubs me the wrong way. For now, I will

vote Tattersail

As I think he's probably being protected by Starling.

I would still be willing to move my vote to Azath, but I think this is at least as solid a case, so I thought I'd put it out there.

Not particularly conclusive on it's own, but again, there had been no one connecting Blend and Tatts, and so no reason to distance. While it is certainly possible for one scum partner to build a case on another, it seems unlikely under these particular circumstances.

The biggest thing for me, though, is Bubba's case on Tatts. Based on his play over the previous day, I'm convinced he was the symp. The symp would never build a case on scum, and Bubba comes down very hard on Tatts' comments, in some cases wilfully misinterpreting them.

Bubba, on 09 December 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 09 December 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Bubba, on 09 December 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 09 December 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Starling I have a problem voting Azath today. I will not tomorrow it depends on who he finds tonight and the outcome.

How dodgy does it look that both Blend and Bubba are voting Azath when multiple people find them at least a little bit scummy.

Fair enough you think I'm scummy and you've.thought that since day one, that's fine. All I can do is make my thoughts known.

I think Blend is a symp or killer and Bubba is symp or killer leaving another symp or killer out there. From your comments above you suggest that you could be a killer but I will go on thinking that it would.be bad etiquette for a killer to play that way, by showing disinterest you get overlooked and that is why HO was frowned upon a few games back.

Shin or Khell is my bet for the other killer.

I'm happy to vote either of the ones I mentioned. Not so much on azath yet. Not starling gnaw or HO.

It does not make sense to do otherwise. Assuming two killers AND Azath IS one then well know more about him tomorrow. There is still another one out there.

I think Gust Hubbs death points fingers towards Azath and I think they (the killers) are setting us up.

This is your scummiest comment to date. How the fuck could the killers know who Azath was doing a find on?

Tatts, that comment pins you as the symp in my mind. You will do anything to protect your master.

You want mw to expand on that comment but ignore the rest of my post?

Gust made a case against azath and round up dead, this points us towards Azath. How do you not comprehend that?

How do you comprehend A finder looking for townies? I don't think that has ever happened in any game I have ever played/modded/or read. It is the worst excuse I have ever heard...well maybe not the worst, but it's up there. There were a lot of people on that train(and if you notice not ME. I didn't think he was scum at that point), I can see the killers picking GH for being on that train, but I can not see Azath picking GH for a find, on the basis of being town. Now you are all calling me "lazy and Disinterested" I am doing neither. I am ONLY acting when I see scummy behavior. I'm not voting on a whim. and I am sure as hell not trying to run the game. I made my case, I let everyone comment, read all those comments, then I acted on them. How the fuck is this called scummy behavior is beyond me.

Bubba, on 09 December 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 09 December 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Sorry just read other replies. Bubba I make a long post in reply to what starling said and the thing you do is pick up on one sentence just like you did with Gnaw a few posts back. Is this your town play style I think not. The more.gov post the more you scream scum

No I am picking up on you trying to railroad me. And in my eyes protect scum. That is why I jumped on that comment. You are dead set on making sure Azath doesn't get lyched "un-till tomorrow" Why? We need to hit scum today to at least get their numbers down. And I see you delaying that. on purpose?

So, Tatts, probably inno.

[Starling]

I didn't find a lot to say about interactions between Blend, Bubba and Khell. There just didn't seem to be a lot there.

However, day one was very illuminating, once I started looking for interactions between Bubba, Blend and HO.

Blend kicks it off early, looking to head off Khells' hatred for HO:

Blend, on 03 December 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

I am torn. A vote for EM is always a good choice in my books but not letting HiddenOne off the hook this time also seems smart. Then again, Tats and Khell were quick to start the joke voting, either of them could be trying to deflect right out the gates, plus I kinda wanna lynch Khell for lynching the healer that was right about everything in the Time Travel game (aka me). On Day 1 no less. In fact, I think we should get rid of him before he uses his superpowers to get us all killed.

vote Khellendross

And then subtly discredits him

Blend, on 03 December 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 03 December 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

HiddenOne, on 03 December 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

you guys already talking crap about me? Khell, you're just sore that you were playing for the wrong team last time.


I think if anybody is looking guilty it's EM, for bragging about a 4 day weekend when I just got a 1.5 day weekend
Don't associate me with the type of person who would do that

Of course I'm sore! You can thank me for playing the best symp the world of mafia has ever known (despite not being a symp) by dying! Die, you bastard!

See even Khell agrees that he was more hurtful to town than helpful.

He starts jumping on any train that isn't HO, first Gust

Blend, on 03 December 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Azathmaster, on 03 December 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Gusty hasnt gotten any attention yet. He's scum

That's actually a very good point. Why has everyone been ignoring Gusty?

Then Gnaw

Blend, on 03 December 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 03 December 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Remove Vote
Vote HiddenOne

A vote with no explanation? I think this is scummier than most of what's out there right now.

Bubba, on 03 December 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I have to say that vote Gnaw is the first really scum like thing I have seen today.

Remove vote, Vote Gnaw


I will be the first to put some pressure on you to explain.

Then Venge

Blend, on 04 December 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 03 December 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

After a role like that being a towny is kind of a nice break. I just get to enjoy the show rather then lick my chops at the amount of flesh that I am going to rip off of someones back.

Comments like this are pretty scummy if you ask me. I still think Gnaw's being scummy too. He still never really explained why he dropped a vote with no explanation, and has pretty much ignored any inquiries into that vote. But comments like Venge's up above make me feel quite alright with voting him.

I was pretty disappointed to wake up this morning to see that HO was a L-1 on a completely nothing case when there is some much scummier behaviour out there. I understand the want to lynch someone on principle, specially in an altless game, but come on guys, we could at least TRY to play Mafia.

remove vote
vote Venge

Screw not trying to start a new train. Yes, it looks suspicious, but come on, I'd much rather have a lynch that made a bit of sense, rather than finding out that HO was an inno after a caseless lynch.

In the end, Venge's lynch was secured, and Blend was the only one continually emphasising how scummy Venge was, in a continued attempt to justify switching the lynch from HO to Venge. When I called him on it, he provided a single quote to back himself up. Obviously he was worried about the lynch swing coming back to haunt him, because no one else was talking about Venge at that point except me, and I was more preoccupied with Tatts and Shin.

HO himself hasn't done a lot to look scummy, but then he hasn't really done a lot at all. I'd almost believe he couldn't be scum, since he basically admitted that he wasn't reading the thread, but Blend's actions day one paint a different picture, and sometimes that's all you can go on.

[Tattersail_]

Next page.

So HO posts

HiddenOne, on 03 December 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

glad everybody's getting along

Venge votes for him.

Vengeance, on 03 December 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

HiddenOne, on 03 December 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

glad everybody's getting along

AHAH, Obvious scum trying to change the subject.


Vote HiddenOne

That is 3 votes for HO.

HiddenOne, on 03 December 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

King Lear, on 03 December 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

Rawr! I have returned!

And everyone is being nice

Watch out Venge will vote you if you dont talk about snow

HO defends himself in a roundabout way against Venge.

Bubba, on 04 December 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Shin hasn't posted yet...what's up with that...does he know he's in this game?

Bubba takes the direction of conversation away from HO by mentioning Shin's absence.

Khellendros, on 04 December 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

Bubba, on 04 December 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Shin hasn't posted yet...what's up with that...does he know he's in this game?

Translation: "Fuck, where's my partner killer?! He'd better not get himself mod-killed!"

Translation: "Fuck HO's getting a lot of flak, where do I transfer the conversation"

Tattersail, on 04 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

Starling, on 04 December 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

sorry, Tuesdays are nuts for me, and today has been more so than usual. I've been sneakily catching up while at my celebratory dinner

Gnaw's drive by vote and total lack of explanation, even when called on it, is still bothering me.

I'm not good at alting people, so I can't use that as a basis for anything. it feels like Gusty is posting less content than he usually does, but then I've seen him post very convincing and content laden posts while playing scum, so that doesn't mean much.

Gusty and Starling may be a good partnership, Starling usually gets to end game by these type of posts. I like it, and agree about the fact that Gusty is good at both town and scum tactics. For now though I will board the HO train.

Remove Vote

Vote Hidden One

There is nothing so far that suggest he play this game differently than any previous, i'd like to see his thoughts on different players and the content to increase otherwise my vote will still.

In terms of scumminess I think you all are scummy. I'll find reasons throughout the day. The first one is Venge

"I am only playing this way because of last game", "lets go after Bubba before he arrives", "vote HO because he has the most votes", "Hi Gusty how's the baby?" Need I go on, where is the vileness? The swearing? For the love of God

Now I vote HO here, not on the case but to get more from him. Although at the time I did find Venge the better option out of the two.

Bubba, on 04 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

I will swap over to the HO train if everyone bails on the Venge train, or if my vote is needed to get the lynch. I have no history of HO so it's hard for me to guess at his playing style.

A promise from Bubba but he never does. He turns it around on player history. That is why he is voting Venge.

Shinrei, on 04 December 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Hi.

I was at the inlaws, and for godknowswhy the father in law did something to the wireless internet and now it doesn't work. So, now that I'm back home I have nets and mafias.

I skimmed really quickly, saw HiddenOne was playing and that's good enough for me.

Vote HiddenOne

So Shin votes HO's way. I can only think a couple of things happened here that made us change votes. It was building up too quick ona nothing case.

[Tattersail_]

HiddenOne, on 04 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 04 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

Starling, on 04 December 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

sorry, Tuesdays are nuts for me, and today has been more so than usual. I've been sneakily catching up while at my celebratory dinner

Gnaw's drive by vote and total lack of explanation, even when called on it, is still bothering me.

I'm not good at alting people, so I can't use that as a basis for anything. it feels like Gusty is posting less content than he usually does, but then I've seen him post very convincing and content laden posts while playing scum, so that doesn't mean much.

Gusty and Starling may be a good partnership, Starling usually gets to end game by these type of posts. I like it, and agree about the fact that Gusty is good at both town and scum tactics. For now though I will board the HO train.

Remove Vote

Vote Hidden One

There is nothing so far that suggest he play this game differently than any previous, i'd like to see his thoughts on different players and the content to increase otherwise my vote will still.

In terms of scumminess I think you all are scummy. I'll find reasons throughout the day. The first one is Venge

"I am only playing this way because of last game", "lets go after Bubba before he arrives", "vote HO because he has the most votes", "Hi Gusty how's the baby?" Need I go on, where is the vileness? The swearing? For the love of God

"board the HO train" That's precious, Tatts. By your own words, you don't think I'm playing any certain way, so you're clueless about me, but willing to go along for lack of better (easier) targets. It seems like a pressure vote since you ask for my thoughts & content. Don't forget it's Day 1. I know you're a fan of the idea that Day 1 is the tell-all for the whole game, but there's simply not much there to go on.

The strangest thing I remember was Venge being calm, sane and cordial.

So HO finds Venge scummy, this is his alternative. What others have mentioned. Also he mentions that I'm a fan of the day one telling me the whole game, Blend uses the same thing later on. Something they have discussed?

HiddenOne, on 04 December 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 04 December 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Hi.

I was at the inlaws, and for godknowswhy the father in law did something to the wireless internet and now it doesn't work. So, now that I'm back home I have nets and mafias.

I skimmed really quickly, saw HiddenOne was playing and that's good enough for me.

Vote HiddenOne

haha still holding a grudge, I see - tell me, is it just me you hate or all low posters?

He is trying to defend against every vote. I've seen him get votes before and not bother defend them. Why so active this time around?

Blend, on 04 December 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 03 December 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

After a role like that being a towny is kind of a nice break. I just get to enjoy the show rather then lick my chops at the amount of flesh that I am going to rip off of someones back.

Comments like this are pretty scummy if you ask me. I still think Gnaw's being scummy too. He still never really explained why he dropped a vote with no explanation, and has pretty much ignored any inquiries into that vote. But comments like Venge's up above make me feel quite alright with voting him.

I was pretty disappointed to wake up this morning to see that HO was a L-1 on a completely nothing case when there is some much scummier behaviour out there. I understand the want to lynch someone on principle, specially in an altless game, but come on guys, we could at least TRY to play Mafia.

remove vote
vote Venge

Screw not trying to start a new train. Yes, it looks suspicious, but come on, I'd much rather have a lynch that made a bit of sense, rather than finding out that HO was an inno after a caseless lynch.

Blend strengthens Bubba's vote on Venge. He points out some things that actually do look scummy by Venge. His previous vote was on Gnaw for the comment earlier on in the thread. Incidentally both he and Bubba voted that way. Then both he and Bubba voted for Venge.

Starling, on 04 December 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

I'm not particularly convinced by either case.

Tatts has been talking all game about switching to Venge, but it is interesting that he refrained from switching until Shin came on, even though there were two votes on Venge already.

I need to get some sleep. It's 4am.

So I'm having trouble with Tatts. His content is problematic. He's fingered several people as scummy but is voting for neither of them. So I distrust this sudden swing away from one train. For that reason, I'm voting HO.

Vote HiddenOne.

Stars votes for HO.

Blend, on 04 December 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

It seems to me like Venge is scrambling.

Blend brings it back to Venge.

[Starling]

And, once more, Tatts beats me to the punch

I'm convinced.

Vote HiddenOne.

[Khellendros]

Whatever happens, I'm glad we slowed down and thought about this. This was really using the day to its fullest potential. Ok, I think it's fitting that I hammer HO. I'll write it in the next post.

[Khellendros]

HiddenOne.

Happy birthday, buddy. How odd is that?!


HiddenOne.

You son of a bitch. You slimy, skulking, low-posting scumbag. You knew it would come to this. Roundabout, maybe. Tortuous, certainly. But here we are, you and me again. I started the train on you so many many hours ago, and now I'm going to finish it. Die HO. Die. This is for last time, and this is for this game too. This is for all the people who died to your backstabbing, treacherous, "I sure don't know what's going on around here" filthy lying, deceitful ways.

You son of a bitch.

Whatever happens, this is justice. For me, this is justice.

Vote HiddenOne


Finally, I am at peace.

[bubba]

I will let you out of the suck ass wait for a mod to end this for you......he was the last killer ....town wins

SH=past

Good game

[bubba]

Sooo close......

[Shinrei]

I would have made Tattersail suffer a few hours just to see if his spleen would explode.

[bubba]

Shinrei, on 12 December 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I would have made Tattersail suffer a few hours just to see if his spleen would explode.

I think I messed with him enough......LOL....sorry Tatts

[Khellendros]

Shinrei, on 12 December 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I would have made Tattersail suffer a few hours just to see if his spleen would explode.

Haha


I WAS RIGHT! OH DEAR SWEETEST GOD, I WAS RIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!

[Khellendros]

Well played Tats. So well played. You made me stop and think about what I was doing on that final day.

[bubba]

Khellendros, on 12 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Well played Tats. So well played. You made me stop and think about what I was doing on that final day.

Tatts did pull it off for town....I couldn't believe it when you started to go after starling....

[Shinrei]

Good game people. Go check out my nervous breakdown in SH.

Apologies to HO in advance. I think I got a little carried away. Maybe should put a personal rule into effect not to comment on a game until 24 hours after the fact.

[Tattersail_]

Now it's time for those naked pictures!!!!!

[Khellendros]

Bubba, on 12 December 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 12 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Well played Tats. So well played. You made me stop and think about what I was doing on that final day.

Tatts did pull it off for town....I couldn't believe it when you started to go after starling....

I just couldn't face the truth that it could be HO again - after the last time, for which you weren't here Bubba. It was horrific.