[Quick~]

Perhaps one of the most confusing characters coming into the start of RotCG, it looks like it's pretty globally agreed that ICE did a great job clueing us in as to what Laseen was all about. With that in mind I figured a thread to discuss her in light of the book might be a worthwhile endeavour.

Personally I think perhaps the biggest thing to come from the book was that Laseen was undoubtedly far more competent in her managing of the empire than a lot of early events led us to believe. It was nice to see how some of the earlier dealings within the empire that seemed strange ended up turning out to have had an impact on events. Such was the scope of her apparent plan actually that you could probably go as far as claiming that she let the Wickan Pogrom occur because she knew the best way for them to get back in favour then was to bail the empire out sometime later.

I liked the way ICE continued to portray her as so "normal" in how she appeared and how she acted in her role as Empress, it was an interesting trait that she'd be so plainly attired and that she didn't really do the whole pomp and circumstance thing (and whilst it was a bit cliched the fact that Possum thought she in no way looked plain as she died was a nice touch I think).

The fact that she got herself involved in the action later on was particularly nice, it spoke volumes for her really in the fact that she could be hands (and feet) on when the time called for it.

Her death was perhaps one of the best in the series in my opinon and I won't bother trying to outdo him so I'll just quote Abyss on it =p

Quote

"At the moment when it became clear she had planned for everything, secessionist and CrimGrd AND Mallick's plots... AND she took out four or five Avowed by herself... and the reader actually believes that the Malazan Empire is in good hands, he KILLS her. Argh. Seriously, ARGH." -Abyss

it was brilliantly done, perfectly timed and really kicked you when you read it.

I think it's perhaps slightly tricky to know where to draw the line for what was part of Laseens plan and what wasn't. It's perhaps a good thing that it maintains a slightly ambiguous feel but I'm not sure whether it's giving her too much credit to say her decisions all seem to have been justified, I guess that's one for the historians.

Regardless this was the book that made, saved and raised Laseen in my eyes and I'll stop waffling there because I want to hear other peoples thoughts on her xD

[/ramble]

This post has been edited by Quick~: 02 October 2008 - 11:21 PM

[blackzoid]

Quick~, on Oct 2 2008, 10:51 PM, said:

Perhaps one of the most confusing characters coming into the start of RotCG, it looks like it's pretty globally agreed that ICE did a great job clueing us in as to what Laseen was all about. With that in mind I figured a thread to discuss her in light of the book might be a worthwhile endeavour.

Personally I think perhaps the biggest thing to come from the book was that Laseen was undoubtedly far more competent in her managing of the empire than a lot of early events led us to believe. It was nice to see how some of the earlier dealings within the empire that seemed strange ended up turning out to have had an impact on events. Such was the scope of her apparent plan actually that you could probably go as far as claiming that she let the Wickan Pogrom occur because she knew the best way for them to get back in favour then was to bail the empire out sometime later.

I liked the way ICE continued to portray her as so "normal" in how she appeared and how she acted in her role as Empress, it was an interesting trait that she'd be so plainly attired and that she didn't really do the whole pomp and circumstance thing (and whilst it was a bit cliched the fact that Possum thought she in no way looked plain as she died was a nice touch I think).

The fact that she got herself involved in the action later on was particularly nice, it spoke volumes for her really in the fact that she could be hands (and feet) on when the time called for it.

Her death was perhaps one of the best in the series in my opinon and I won't bother trying to outdo him so I'll just quote Abyss on it =p

Quote

"At the moment when it became clear she had planned for everything, secessionist and CrimGrd AND Mallick's plots... AND she took out four or five Avowed by herself... and the reader actually believes that the Malazan Empire is in good hands, he KILLS her. Argh. Seriously, ARGH." -Abyss

it was brilliantly done, perfectly timed and really kicked you when you read it.

I think it's perhaps slightly tricky to know where to draw the line for what was part of Laseens plan and what wasn't. It's perhaps a good thing that it maintains a slightly ambiguous feel but I'm not sure whether it's giving her too much credit to say her decisions all seem to have been justified, I guess that's one for the historians.

Regardless this was the book that made, saved and raised Laseen in my eyes and I'll stop waffling there because I want to hear other peoples thoughts on her xD

[/ramble]

No, I'm sorry, She is still an absolute fucking idiot in my book.
She went from having Mallick Rel and Dom being prisoners in her grasp at the end of HoC, to being circumvented by them during TB and finally to be assainated by one of Rel's agents during RoTCG. Why did she let them live when they were prisioners? What possible reason could there by? It was the most stupid decision by any leader, that I've read so far.
That act caused the Civil War in Quon Tali, killing how many troops?
That act caused the schism in the Claw killing how many Hands?
That act started the Wickan Pogram and I fail to see any benefit for the Empire or the Wickan's as a result. By telling the truth about Coltaine's March, the people would probably have accepted it.
That act send Tavore on her way with a fairly decent sized army.

Unless some future book sheds light on this, I consider her a failure as an empress. A good battlefield commander, but a terrible ruler.

[Abyss]

It's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but...

blackzoid, on Oct 3 2008, 05:51 AM, said:

No, I'm sorry, She is still an absolute fucking idiot in my book.
She went from having Mallick Rel and Dom being prisoners in her grasp at the end of HoC, to being circumvented by them during TB and finally to be assainated by one of Rel's agents during RoTCG. Why did she let them live when they were prisioners? What possible reason could there by? It was the most stupid decision by any leader, that I've read so far.

She had two problems. The loss of 7C and Rel and Dom's political moves. The population was angry and she was losing support, including amongst the Claw. What she did was brilliant - seem to aceed to Rel and Dom, send a doomed army of malcontents into the Wickan Plans, and put her own plans into action to subvert Rel. Dom was an idiot and could be shoved aside at any point.

Quote

That act caused the Civil War in Quon Tali, killing how many troops?

The Old Guard caused the civil war, which dates back to the original 'assassination' of Kel and Dancer - a series of events Kel and Dancer themselves engineered to ensure Surly took power.

Quote

That act caused the schism in the Claw killing how many Hands?

The Claw are the Red Shirts of the Malazan World. There are always more of them, and more to the point, they need to be culled regularly because otherwise they become ambitious and fracticious. Topper and Laseen were perfectly happy to have Kalam off a bunch of them in DG, and the ones Topper took out in the IW were a necessary sacrifice to deny its use to the Glove.

Quote

That act started the Wickan Pogram and I fail to see any benefit for the Empire or the Wickan's as a result. By telling the truth about Coltaine's March, the people would probably have accepted it.

Laseen disagrees with you. Point being, in the lowest mob mentality need a scapegoat sort of way, Laseen needed both a hero and a scapegoat. Coltaine was dead - making him into a martyr may have turned ugly. Dom, on the other hand, is an idiot, and Laseen could be sure she could take him out down the road. She underestimated Rel, but only narrowly.

The Wickan Pogrom sent a bunch of useless nobles off into the Wickan plains where they would be out of Laseen's way and likely die.

Quote

That act send Tavore on her way with a fairly decent sized army.

Yes, but it appears Laseen enevr counted on Tavore coming back in, and she was already aware that someone needed to oppose the CG. The 14th is it.

Quote

Unless some future book sheds light on this, I consider her a failure as an empress. A good battlefield commander, but a terrible ruler.

As far as battlefields go, she stayed the hell out of the way of the effective commanders. Her real strength was in putting the right people in charge and then drawing powerful attacks to herself so she could take out the major players.

I suspect what irks you is her cold-bloodedness. She didn't hesitate to sacrifice the wickans, various Imperial nobles and such, and big heaping gobs of Claw to further her goals.

It's not that she was a nice person - no one ever said she was. And she was hardly infallible - Mel totally undermined her, tho she recovered. But as a ruler, what SE and ICE created in the character was fairly impressive.

- Abyss, would vote for Laseen in 2008.

[buddhacat]

Abyss, on Oct 3 2008, 07:34 AM, said:

It's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but...

blackzoid, on Oct 3 2008, 05:51 AM, said:

No, I'm sorry, She is still an absolute fucking idiot in my book.
She went from having Mallick Rel and Dom being prisoners in her grasp at the end of HoC, to being circumvented by them during TB and finally to be assainated by one of Rel's agents during RoTCG. Why did she let them live when they were prisioners? What possible reason could there by? It was the most stupid decision by any leader, that I've read so far.

She had two problems. The loss of 7C and Rel and Dom's political moves. The population was angry and she was losing support, including amongst the Claw. What she did was brilliant - seem to aceed to Rel and Dom, send a doomed army of malcontents into the Wickan Plans, and put her own plans into action to subvert Rel. Dom was an idiot and could be shoved aside at any point.

This was her biggest mistake and everything else was just cleaning up after this mess. Dom and Rel should have been dispatched pronto.

She would then still have had the Adjunt and her army and the Claws. The drought and hardships - well her solutions to those are silly (kill the foreigners is a common reaction in times of hardship, but banal in these stories. I recall a comment about that in RG regardinng Letheras as well.)

[blackzoid]

Abyss, on Oct 3 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

It's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but...

blackzoid, on Oct 3 2008, 05:51 AM, said:

No, I'm sorry, She is still an absolute fucking idiot in my book.
She went from having Mallick Rel and Dom being prisoners in her grasp at the end of HoC, to being circumvented by them during TB and finally to be assainated by one of Rel's agents during RoTCG. Why did she let them live when they were prisioners? What possible reason could there by? It was the most stupid decision by any leader, that I've read so far.

She had two problems. The loss of 7C and Rel and Dom's political moves. The population was angry and she was losing support, including amongst the Claw. What she did was brilliant - seem to aceed to Rel and Dom, send a doomed army of malcontents into the Wickan Plans, and put her own plans into action to subvert Rel. Dom was an idiot and could be shoved aside at any point.

Quote

That act caused the Civil War in Quon Tali, killing how many troops?

The Old Guard caused the civil war, which dates back to the original 'assassination' of Kel and Dancer - a series of events Kel and Dancer themselves engineered to ensure Surly took power.

Quote

That act caused the schism in the Claw killing how many Hands?

The Claw are the Red Shirts of the Malazan World. There are always more of them, and more to the point, they need to be culled regularly because otherwise they become ambitious and fracticious. Topper and Laseen were perfectly happy to have Kalam off a bunch of them in DG, and the ones Topper took out in the IW were a necessary sacrifice to deny its use to the Glove.

Quote

That act started the Wickan Pogram and I fail to see any benefit for the Empire or the Wickan's as a result. By telling the truth about Coltaine's March, the people would probably have accepted it.

Laseen disagrees with you. Point being, in the lowest mob mentality need a scapegoat sort of way, Laseen needed both a hero and a scapegoat. Coltaine was dead - making him into a martyr may have turned ugly. Dom, on the other hand, is an idiot, and Laseen could be sure she could take him out down the road. She underestimated Rel, but only narrowly.

The Wickan Pogrom sent a bunch of useless nobles off into the Wickan plains where they would be out of Laseen's way and likely die.

Quote

That act send Tavore on her way with a fairly decent sized army.

Yes, but it appears Laseen enevr counted on Tavore coming back in, and she was already aware that someone needed to oppose the CG. The 14th is it.

Quote

Unless some future book sheds light on this, I consider her a failure as an empress. A good battlefield commander, but a terrible ruler.

As far as battlefields go, she stayed the hell out of the way of the effective commanders. Her real strength was in putting the right people in charge and then drawing powerful attacks to herself so she could take out the major players.

I suspect what irks you is her cold-bloodedness. She didn't hesitate to sacrifice the wickans, various Imperial nobles and such, and big heaping gobs of Claw to further her goals.

It's not that she was a nice person - no one ever said she was. And she was hardly infallible - Mel totally undermined her, tho she recovered. But as a ruler, what SE and ICE created in the character was fairly impressive.

- Abyss, would vote for Laseen in 2008.

Abyss, no offense but you have missd the central thrust of my argument.
Lasseen had Rel, a known(to her) TRAITOR in her grasp at the end of HoC.
How and why did she not arrange for a quiet "accident" to happen to him?
What was the point of keeping him alive?
Every single event I commented on, could have been avoided by killing him right there and then!
Maybe its hindsight but it was the most insanse decision I have yet to see a Malazan leader do.
When I was reading the Bonehunters, I was shaking my head in disbelief at what I was seeing on the page.
How did she let him get this political power you mention? How did she allow the pogram to happen?
This was the woman who had the courage to take on the Emperor and Dancer and she didn't kill a known enemy gift-wrapped for her?
How can you explain this mistake?
No, the buck has to stop with her.


Blackzoid will vote for anyone else but Lasseen in 2008. Even Pust.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 04 October 2008 - 03:24 AM

[Sindriss]

I would vote for Tehol, seriously!
He got a pocket elder god and then he is brilliant. And funny, i want a funny leader. Taking ransoms for hens is good for the economy I hear.

But as I see Laseen, she made some critical errors but in the end she almost managed to get though it and come out clean on the other side. So she has made some critical errors, but she is in no way stupid or incompetent.

[Imperial Historian]

I think what your forgetting is that Lassen could not have killed Mallick Rel, Mallicks role as the sole jhistal, a priesthood who had forced the elder god mael to do their bidding, makes him an unknown quantity of potentially huge power, with mael as his backup he could have dished out some serious hurt if anyone had attempted to take him down, which is why I think that lasseen left him alone, and began the plan to undermine his power with the mael worshippers. I'm still a fan personally... I thought ICE portrayed her really well.

[blackzoid]

Imperial Historian, on Oct 4 2008, 11:06 AM, said:

I think what your forgetting is that Lassen could not have killed Mallick Rel, Mallicks role as the sole jhistal, a priesthood who had forced the elder god mael to do their bidding, makes him an unknown quantity of potentially huge power, with mael as his backup he could have dished out some serious hurt if anyone had attempted to take him down, which is why I think that lasseen left him alone, and began the plan to undermine his power with the mael worshippers. I'm still a fan personally... I thought ICE portrayed her really well.

Hmm, perhaps that is a good point there. The various offerings to Mael that Rel saw in Unta harbour, could have been instigated by her.
But i thought it was Brys bringing back the names of all the gods at the end of Reaper's Gale that cut the bonds on Mael?
Hopefully Dust of Dreams will clear this up.

Perhaps I am being too harsh on her on not killing Rel straight away. It doesn't help that we don't know what exactly the Jhistal priesthood is.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 04 October 2008 - 01:50 PM

[Imperial Historian]

From my reading of the book, the jhistal priesthood were a priesthood who had found out about mael the elder god at a point when he was generally not worshipped, then they began to 'worship' mael, but perverted the worship so it revolved around blood sacrifice... they used the power of the blood to weave rituals, which combined with the fact that they were maels only worshippers, led to them having control over mael, simmilarly to feather witchs influence over the errant as his high priest. I'm not sure of the details but it seems if you have accepted godhood, your actions are in part dictated by your worshippers, and the bloodthirsty worship of the jhistal was perverted in such a way so that they controlled mael, and gained more power by using mael's power to take more lives. Mael was able to overturn this by using the power he gained from other worshippers to remove the jhistals hold on him, which was weakened anyway by kelvanneds destruction of the cult.

[blackzoid]

Imperial Historian, on Oct 4 2008, 04:13 PM, said:

From my reading of the book, the jhistal priesthood were a priesthood who had found out about mael the elder god at a point when he was generally not worshipped, then they began to 'worship' mael, but perverted the worship so it revolved around blood sacrifice... they used the power of the blood to weave rituals, which combined with the fact that they were maels only worshippers, led to them having control over mael, simmilarly to feather witchs influence over the errant as his high priest. I'm not sure of the details but it seems if you have accepted godhood, your actions are in part dictated by your worshippers, and the bloodthirsty worship of the jhistal was perverted in such a way so that they controlled mael, and gained more power by using mael's power to take more lives. Mael was able to overturn this by using the power he gained from other worshippers to remove the jhistals hold on him, which was weakened anyway by kelvanneds destruction of the cult.

A damned fine analysis there.
i'd rep you if I knew how.

[Greymane]

Imperial Historian, on Oct 4 2008, 10:06 AM, said:

I think what your forgetting is that Lassen could not have killed Mallick Rel, Mallicks role as the sole jhistal, a priesthood who had forced the elder god mael to do their bidding, makes him an unknown quantity of potentially huge power, with mael as his backup he could have dished out some serious hurt if anyone had attempted to take him down, which is why I think that lasseen left him alone, and began the plan to undermine his power with the mael worshippers. I'm still a fan personally... I thought ICE portrayed her really well.

Also, I think it's likely that the Claw was already compromised by the time Rel was captured. We learn in HoC that a conspiracy amongst the nobles has led to the re-activation of the Talon. The noble's purge at the start of SHG was an effort to crush this conspiracy, but it came too late.

Laseen knew Dom and Rel were behind the conspiracy, but not much else. if she has them summarily executed, she might never flush out the other traitors, and she certain;y can't predict if they'll have contigency plans in place in case of their death. For all she knows, Rel's Glove have orders to move on Laseen if he's executed.

That, plus the reasons given in BH seem good enough for me.

[VampireGoat]

bleh when it turns out laseens dead spirit got dragged back to deadhouse and while loitering for a while noticed the big mans chair was empty and decided to take a sit down...

then when it turns out she planned it all along...

AND THEN when it turns out she arranged it with ST & Cot YEARS ago and its all been some mega uber ruse thats fooled everyone...

This is the malazan world, recently it seems all the cool kids have been getting themselves offed in imaginative ways only to resurface kicking bottom in a 'godly' fashion.

When it turns out the old guard actually grew bored of conquerering cities and decided that mabey they should aim for the pantheon next and laseen is at the forefront again remeber which clueless fool spouted this gibberish first!

[Imperial Historian]

Actually mallick's rel suggested actions of creating a grand tomb/legend around the death of the empress could set her on the path to be god of the malazan empire

[Abyss]

buddhacat, on Oct 3 2008, 11:11 AM, said:

This was her biggest mistake and everything else was just cleaning up after this mess. Dom and Rel should have been dispatched pronto.

She would then still have had the Adjunt and her army and the Claws. The drought and hardships - well her solutions to those are silly (kill the foreigners is a common reaction in times of hardship, but banal in these stories. I recall a comment about that in RG regardinng Letheras as well.)

Dom was an idiot and a known quantity. It seemed pretty clear in RCG Laseen could have taken him out at any point.

Otoh, Mallick was a powerful Jhistal and had already subverted the Claw amongst those dissatisfied with Laseen. If she had moved overtly against him it could have been a disaster ending with her dead and the Claw divided and openly at conflict. Instead, she sent a bunch of disposable fanatics off to fight the Wickans (a disposeable ally but one likely to survive the pogrom) and set Topper and Possum to eliminating the Black Glove as opportunity permits.

blackzoid, on Oct 3 2008, 11:08 PM, said:

Abyss, no offense but you have missd the central thrust of my argument.
Lasseen had Rel, ...could have been avoided by killing him right there and then!
...

See above and others' posts in response. It's very clear in TB that had Tavore and Kalam done what you say should have happened, it likely would not have worked leaving Rel in charge and no one to oppose the CG's plans.

What people seem to struggle with is Laseen making hard decisions that sacrifice others, ie: the Wickans post DG. And yes it sucks and yes it's evil and wrong and bad and that's the point. She sacrificed her own Claw to remove the Black Glove. She moved against Kel and Dancer because they had been gone too long to return to power. She permitted a riot in Malaz City that killed hundreds if not thousands. She's cold-blooded enuf to sacrifice whoever/whatever she needs to to keep the Empire intact. And THAT'S why she's a great character.

And naturally some readers are going to respond negatively to the same thing others like moi find awesome.

- Abyss, frequently sacrifices support staff to the coffee gods...

[Zanth13]

@ I agree with Abyss,

the only thing she did that wasnt awesome was die... not really awesome when you die, unless she faked it, or comes back... which would has been done enough to make it really lame. ..

maybe she ascended to be queen or mistress of shadow...

mmmmmmmm

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Re: Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom..."Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."

Can't remember who said that originally - but maybe it was what she was "thinking."

OHA

[mot]

Actually, the above discussion about Laseen and her possible re-emergence is not too far-fetched. Early on in the book, when Possum is speaking with the dead at Unta delivering the message, the skull says, "I have a message for you...they are returning...the death-cheaters, the defiers, all the withholders and arrogators...Ah--here comes one now." And at that point, Laseen shows up. She is clearly not CG, but the Old Guard are mentioned throughout this book to have had rituals associated with Denul enacted on their behalf and giving them longer life at the very least. Moreover, in HoC, there is the implication that Surly, as part of the family, spent some time in the Deadhouse, which,"rewarded us with--as is now clearly evident--certain gifts. Longevity, immunity to most diseases, and...other things." As for her death itself, earlier in RoTCG, Mallick talks of his two great talents. Now at least one of them has been sent who knows where, Laseen having taken her out. Moreover, she has cut loose her most important army (in my opinion) the same way she did Dujek, has established a Malazan and a Bridgeburner as the Master of the Deck who leads her other great army (I assume she knows through the Claw), and done a pretty good job saving as many of the Old Guard as she could. It was their inability to change that led to this civil war (see Moss' comments to Toc). As it is, Dassem's two bodyguards remain, as does Cartharon, Urko, and Braven Tooth. Anyway, my point is, Laseen seems to have a way of always having a backup plan, or as Cotillion once said, recognizing efficiency. Who knows? Now that there is vacancy for Death maybe Laseen picks it up somehow, and ultimately helping Shadow in their quest to control the assorted thrones. Her name does mean Thronemaster, I assume that's not for nothing.

[mot]

Oh, and one more thing. She clearly kept Malazan military innovation as seen by Toc's surprise at Storo's effectiveness.

[Blend]

mot, on Dec 7 2008, 07:15 AM, said:

Oh, and one more thing. She clearly kept Malazan military innovation as seen by Toc's surprise at Storo's effectiveness.

Well, I dunno about that one. I mean, Storo was in Li Heng cause Silk wanted him there. I think in this case that Silk kept Malazan military innovation!

[T'renn]

What innovation was that again ?