[Blend]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Dec 9 2008, 12:05 PM, said:

What innovation was that again ?

I don't know what Mot meant, but I figure he means innovation in that they are good, hard soldiers who are dedicated to at least their commander, or to the empire, or something of that sort. Storo and co. remind very much of a Bridgeburners squad. I know that's prolly misuse of the term innovation, but meh.

[Traveller]

Blend, on Dec 9 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Dec 9 2008, 12:05 PM, said:

What innovation was that again ?

I don't know what Mot meant, but I figure he means innovation in that they are good, hard soldiers who are dedicated to at least their commander, or to the empire, or something of that sort. Storo and co. remind very much of a Bridgeburners squad. I know that's prolly misuse of the term innovation, but meh.

Maybe it was the innovation of giving malazan soldiers the freedom to be inventive/work independently in the field, without direct orders - I'm sure there's a line somewhere about how the Emperor made the Malaz army successful by 'letting them think.'

Just a thought.

[T'renn]

Like Dassem tought them you mean ? Think independently and do whats right among other things

[Traveller]

Would need a quote I guess. I know Dassem tought that too, but i thought it was the Emperors idea.

[Sinisdar Toste]

no i think it would have been dassem dictating the indoctrination that was being... indoctored... w.e. kellenved may have tried but i can see dassem just telling him to mind his own shit

[mot]

Sorry, for responding earlier, it has been a busy week. The others were right, the innovation I was thinking off was the manner in which the emperor's army could break up into smaller units and think for themselves. I didn't have the first books in front of me (I have lent them out to someone out of state), but (as the others have pointed out), it was brought up as an important element to the success of the malazan armies. I think that works in Laseen's favor in two ways: 1)we know that she kept some of the Old Guard, but placed them in lesser, more adaptable positions within the military (MOI) and 2) obviously kept the same military thinking, from the Harbor Guards, to Storo' you can't do those things unless the military thinking it is place.

[The Drum]

Going back to why Lase kept MR and KD alive, i thought she explained her reasons when she said that famine was coming to the empire thanks to the plague in 7 cities, therefore she needed to use the wickan plains to grow crops, therefore she made out that the wickans were traitors to sow dissent against them. She couldn't kill KB and MR cos they would have to be hero's to support the story against the wickans.
I personnally think its not the last we've seen of Laseen, the way she approached the crater left by the explosion, seemed a little too out in the open to me, as if she needed people to see her head to that location and adversly see her assassination! just my opinion.

[Durvasha]

I am a bit confused and this seems to be the best place to ask, instead of creating a thread.

everyonw keeps saying Lassen should have killed MR and KD when they were her prisoners. I get KD reference, but when was MR her prisoner? i mean, i cannot remember anything in the books and I donot have the books handy.

[foolio]

Quote

I am a bit confused and this seems to be the best place to ask, instead of creating a thread.

everyonw keeps saying Lassen should have killed MR and KD when they were her prisoners. I get KD reference, but when was MR her prisoner? i mean, i cannot remember anything in the books and I donot have the books handy.

when the revolt in 7cs started going down hill, not successfully taking Aren, Rel and it is assumed his loyal claws head to Malaz city. he was placed in light security. Not like hard time, gallows prison, but supposedly confined to quarters for a while.

Not going to get drawn into this....I herby retire from Laseen threads.

[Wampyry]

Possible spoilers

Spoiler

Maybe Laseen is gone for good. The authors seem to like killing off their major players. Erickson had a lot of practice with Toc the Younger. Rake is gone almost by hari kari. Icarium is gone with thousands of mememories - none of his own. Now, Laseen who outsmarted all her adversaries and outfought the Old Guard's best generals. She gets killed in her moment of glory. Wouldn't surprise me if Laseen is really dead.

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 05 March 2009 - 11:13 PM

[L'oric]

There is a quote in Toll the Hounds by Traveller that states that all the Napan old guard were sworn to Laseen.

Does that change anyones opinion of her one way or another? I think it makes it an even more baffling situation between her and all the old guard we see throughout the book.

Sincerely,

[Aptorian]

It certainly suggests she was more than just a tavern wench when she joined Kel and Dancer.

[HoosierDaddy]

L'oric, on Mar 9 2009, 05:32 PM, said:

There is a quote in Toll the Hounds by Traveller that states that all the Napan old guard were sworn to Laseen.

Does that change anyones opinion of her one way or another? I think it makes it an even more baffling situation between her and all the old guard we see throughout the book.

Sincerely,

That's because she was Princess and deposed "rightful" sovereign of the Napan isles as Nok tells Tavore in HoC.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 10 March 2009 - 02:33 AM

[blackzoid]

Durvasha, on Mar 5 2009, 01:20 PM, said:

I am a bit confused and this seems to be the best place to ask, instead of creating a thread.

everyonw keeps saying Lassen should have killed MR and KD when they were her prisoners. I get KD reference, but when was MR her prisoner? i mean, i cannot remember anything in the books and I donot have the books handy.

I believe that was me who started that. I thought that both of them were delivered to Laseen at the end of HoC. But after a reread its only KD who was actually prisoner. MR wasn't there and was infiltrating the Claw at that point. I was incorrect.

[Monoch Ochem]

mot, on Dec 7 2008, 07:10 AM, said:

Actually, the above discussion about Laseen and her possible re-emergence is not too far-fetched. Early on in the book, when Possum is speaking with the dead at Unta delivering the message, the skull says, "I have a message for you...they are returning...the death-cheaters, the defiers, all the withholders and arrogators...Ah--here comes one now." And at that point, Laseen shows up. She is clearly not CG, but the Old Guard are mentioned throughout this book to have had rituals associated with Denul enacted on their behalf and giving them longer life at the very least. Moreover, in HoC, there is the implication that Surly, as part of the family, spent some time in the Deadhouse, which,"rewarded us with--as is now clearly evident--certain gifts. Longevity, immunity to most diseases, and...other things." As for her death itself, earlier in RoTCG, Mallick talks of his two great talents. Now at least one of them has been sent who knows where, Laseen having taken her out. Moreover, she has cut loose her most important army (in my opinion) the same way she did Dujek, has established a Malazan and a Bridgeburner as the Master of the Deck who leads her other great army (I assume she knows through the Claw), and done a pretty good job saving as many of the Old Guard as she could. It was their inability to change that led to this civil war (see Moss' comments to Toc). As it is, Dassem's two bodyguards remain, as does Cartharon, Urko, and Braven Tooth. Anyway, my point is, Laseen seems to have a way of always having a backup plan, or as Cotillion once said, recognizing efficiency. Who knows? Now that there is vacancy for Death maybe Laseen picks it up somehow, and ultimately helping Shadow in their quest to control the assorted thrones. Her name does mean Thronemaster, I assume that's not for nothing.

Really interesting. I too wondered if she was really dead- I wonder if someone will somewhere discover an 'empty tomb' one day, or find another body occupying it. Though to be fair, we don't know if the sorcerous attack on Taya sent her where she went. It seemed she emerged from a warren and into one she returned, after the attack. It wasn't Lasseen who used sorcery- she can't (otataral). It came from those rushing to her defence.

Still, it seems odd that she was in the open like that- yes, to lure Cowl but why take that risk then and there? True, she could have been siezing the moment but maybe it would be better to carefully seek him out. Maybe she needed to rule from behind the scenes and so stage a public death....or rather, publicly stage her death.

Admirable arguments also Abyss: I see why you admire her (I'm in the camp of people who hate the bitch....but grudgingly admire her abilities). But how was she to count on the safety of the Wickans surviving the pogrom when by her actions, Nil and Nether would have been condemned to death? I doubt she knew of THEIR potential or for that matter, that they'd even have survived.

I do muse on this notion of Empire though...the barbarity in establishing it and maintaining it- does that make it WORTH it? Not much different to the slaughter of the alleged discord that existed before.....

[Urb]

Argh!
Read through this book too fast damnit.

Someone help me, please.
I can't remember; who killed Laseen?

It wasn't Apsalar was it?
Was Apsalar even in this book?

[Aptorian]

There was mention of something demonic about the Assassin jumping about. In the start of the book we hear about Vorcans half demon daughter having come to Quon to get revenge on the empire because she blames the Malazan Empire for her mothers disappearance.

And as far as we know Apsalar didn't appear in this one.

Allthough some people suspect that one of the last Assassins Topper put down was her. I don't agree though.

[Urb]

I ask because I stumbled on this quote in Deadhouse Gates:

Deadhouse Gates said:

'Yet did not the soldier say that Cotillion's relinquishing of the lass was forced upon him by the threat of Anomander Rake? The possession was meant to last much longer, taking the lass ever closer to the Empress herself...'
'So everyone assumes,' Mappo said. 'Iskaral Pust is a High Priest of Shadow. I think it best to assume that no matter how devious Pust is, Shadowthrone and Cotillion are more devious. By far. A truly possessed Apsalar would never get close to Laseen - the Claws would sniff it out, not to mention the Adjunct and her Otataral sword. But an Apsalar no longer possessed... well... and Cotillion's made sure she's not just a simple fishergirl any more, hasn't he?'

It just struck me as awesome if it actually was Apsalar, but I seem to recall Vorcan's daughter as well.

[Aptorian]

This was speculation.

Unless my memory is completely mistaken, this speculation was denied later. Apparently, in the "sorry/apsalar and shadow vs empire" retcon that appears to take place between GOTM and MOI, Sorry was supposed to hitch a ride into the Panion Domin and kill Panion.

Shadow never intended to take down Lassen directly.

[Monoch Ochem]

It definitely wasn't Apsalar who took out Laseen. That was Mallick's assasin (Taya, was it?)...and Vorcan's daughter, yes. And yes, she is demon or part-demon.

I doubt Apsalar showed up in this one at all. I wonder though, both Shimmer and Laseen aparently know how to Shadow-dance. It seems that Shimmer isn't as adept though (she made that mistake) but fit would seem that between Apsalar and Laseen, it could be a close thing. Interesting that Apsalar used the Shadow Dance in TB, and no magic. What would Laseen make of that?