[Urizen]

Monoch Ochem, on Apr 14 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

I doubt Apsalar showed up in this one at all. I wonder though, both Shimmer and Laseen aparently know how to Shadow-dance. It seems that Shimmer isn't as adept though (she made that mistake) but fit would seem that between Apsalar and Laseen, it could be a close thing. Interesting that Apsalar used the Shadow Dance in TB, and no magic. What would Laseen make of that?

Huh? first, where does Shimmer and Laseen show any skills with Shadowdancing? Every time we see Laseen in action, she sticks with "regular" hand to hand fighting.
Second, Isn't Shadowdancing merely a different use/form of magic?

[ISTN4249]

Could it be possible that Shadowthrone/Cot's eagerness to mess with Laseen is just for show? Perhaps they struck at deal at/around/near their disappearance/ascendance with Laseen. They were planning to take the throne of shadow and would be vulnerable. They would need diversions/distractions or just plain somebody to keep all the heat off of them. They know Laseen and her competance. So they strike a bargain with her to keep the Malazan Empire running properly and causing enough of a stink to keep other ascendants like Caladan and Rake busy while Kell/Dancer sneak around striking bargains and generally improving their power base.

In return, at some point in the future, they will bring Laseen into the fold. Perhaps she will ascend to become the Queen/Mistress of High House Shadow

[HoosierDaddy]

I just finished NOK. It becomes fairly apparent that all Surly really cared about was becoming Empress. If Dancer and Kellanved were willing to "dissappear" I don't think she'd much care as long as they did so, like the Old Guard (Toc, Urko....)

[Zendog13]

Her death was almost perfect, I can scarce think of a better way for her to go. Just like that. Is not that how it is?
A part of me said "toooo perfect" but I doubt myself there.

[Gruntle Cub]

I agree, I doubt she really died. All the planning and then splat... Who killed her though? I didn't really understand that bit?

[Harvester]

Gruntle Cub, on 19 January 2010 - 03:59 PM, said:

I agree, I doubt she really died. All the planning and then splat... Who killed her though? I didn't really understand that bit?

Vorcan's daughter stabbed her.

[Pig Iron]

Thread necro a bit I guess, but just having re-read ROTCG I believe even more firmly that the old Deadhouse gang, Surly included, saw what was coming and had a plan (clue in BSG sound effects). Laseen had to send the better part of her armed forces with Tavore since that was more important than anything else, and thus overextended try to get the Empire through civil war. She almost made it. One of the best characters in all the books.

[Abyss]

Pig Iron, on 19 January 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

Thread necro a bit I guess, but just having re-read ROTCG I believe even more firmly that the old Deadhouse gang, Surly included, saw what was coming and had a plan (clue in BSG sound effects). Laseen had to send the better part of her armed forces with Tavore since that was more important than anything else, and thus overextended try to get the Empire through civil war. She almost made it. One of the best characters in all the books.

Not the better part of her forces, but the only mobile army she had at the time, since the Host, which was what was left of the three armies on genebackis, went awol with Paran in TB.

I go back and forth on how much of what went down was part of Laseen's plan. It certainly seems that opposing the Cg was always part of the plan, from Whisleyjack's demotion and Dujek's betrayal to the alliance with Rake and co. Left alone, the Pannion Domin would have eaten Genebackis and continued to everywhere else.

On the other hand there was the revolt on 7C and Dom and Rel's subsequent political and Claw subversion - i think that Laseen did NOT plan for those parts, and that was where she 'failed' as a ruler.

But she recovered to an extent - she has her own Claw and mages hunting out the Black Glove (Possum messes up one of these), she assembles a new army of veterans and large numbers of recruits to oppose the separatists and in the process subverts the separatist army, reacquires the Old Guard's loyalty, and then uses her merged forces to confront the Crimson Guard, always having Topper waiting in ambush for when Cowl, arguably the most dangerous of the Avowed, made his move.

So i suppose what it comes down to is how much of Laseen's master plan was Tavore in on, and how much of that was derailed when Dom and Rel made their move post HoC.

Or, put it another way, how much information did Tavore gather of her own accord, by Tamber/eres'al or elsewhere, that led her to decide that she HAD to split from Laseen to stop the CG. Plus the residual loyalty to her troops in not handing over the Wickans and the Khundryl to the pogrom.

My pet theory is that a split with Laseen was inevitable but Rel's subversion of the Claw and Laseen's authority meant that the split wasn't a ploy like Dujek's was, but a genuine break from Laseen's Empire when Laseen needed loyal troops and support more than ever.

Which made everything that followed in RCg more difficult, but not insurmountable. I suppose that without events on Malaz Island in TB Laseen might have had Pearl and other loyal Claw with her and been able to prevent Dom's power play or assassination.

- Abyss, playa.

[Ulrik]

IMO whole Tavores rebellion wasnt her plan. In BH its pretty much shown by SE and extended an RG. She simply lost control of Empire, bcause with Ammanas´ death left whole bunch of key generals and personalities. She had to put in incompetent ones which lead to rise of Mallick (and small creatures like Korbolo or worse, Pormqual). She was overthrown by her own design. Thats why I cant see her as succesful ruler. Simple coup isnt enough and she never realised it - until was too late.
And her involment in "ascendant and god politics" is very phantomed for me. From wha I read she always answered to real danger for Empire, not something more. Releasing Raest was almost suicidal (OK, GotM), Domin was military danger to whole continent... IMO she wasnt interested in some fight against CG - if she even knew bout him /probably yes, but...)

I think that here is ICE inconsistent with SE. In tBH and RG is stated many times that Claw is badly mauled by Apsalar´s Shadow Dance and Kalam´s run. And situation in RotCG looked to me that there wasnt such decimation.

[Urizen]

Ulrik, on 19 January 2010 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think that here is ICE inconsistent with SE. In tBH and RG is stated many times that Claw is badly mauled by Apsalar´s Shadow Dance and Kalam´s run. And situation in RotCG looked to me that there wasnt such decimation.

Doesn't Possum several times in the story think about how badly mauled the Claw was at Malaz City? I seem to remember him complaining to himself about the incompetence of the Claw agents left.

[Ulrik]

Urizen, on 20 January 2010 - 09:50 AM, said:

Ulrik, on 19 January 2010 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think that here is ICE inconsistent with SE. In tBH and RG is stated many times that Claw is badly mauled by Apsalar´s Shadow Dance and Kalam´s run. And situation in RotCG looked to me that there wasnt such decimation.

Doesn't Possum several times in the story think about how badly mauled the Claw was at Malaz City? I seem to remember him complaining to himself about the incompetence of the Claw agents left.

If so - my fault. I just got feeling that Claw was still working, no catastrophy. But I do not even know who Ghelel is:)

[Kanubis]

Ulrik, on 20 January 2010 - 12:11 PM, said:

Urizen, on 20 January 2010 - 09:50 AM, said:

Ulrik, on 19 January 2010 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think that here is ICE inconsistent with SE. In tBH and RG is stated many times that Claw is badly mauled by Apsalar´s Shadow Dance and Kalam´s run. And situation in RotCG looked to me that there wasnt such decimation.

Doesn't Possum several times in the story think about how badly mauled the Claw was at Malaz City? I seem to remember him complaining to himself about the incompetence of the Claw agents left.

If so - my fault. I just got feeling that Claw was still working, no catastrophy. But I do not even know who Ghelel is:)

I'm on a reread of RotCG now, and Possum definately thinks about how the claw was decimated that night.

I think (it was very late last night that I read this bit) that losing such a large element of the Claw, and Pearl as well, is part of the reason Laseen has such a tenuous control over the empire at this point.

[Abyss]

Ulrik, on 19 January 2010 - 10:51 PM, said:

IMO whole Tavores rebellion wasnt her plan. In BH its pretty much shown by SE and extended an RG. She simply lost control of Empire, bcause with Ammanas´ death left whole bunch of key generals and personalities. She had to put in incompetent ones ...Simple coup isnt enough and she never realised it - until was too late. ...

true. even by a very generous reading, Laseen was hardly the master planner that Kellanved was. Plus Kellanved had a core of deeply trusted people while Laseen had a bunch of ambitious assassins. I suppose it's fair to say that given what she had to work with and the position she found herself in, she did an impressive job.

It's also worth throwing in that Laseen's takeover was anticipated and in fact required by Kellanved. he and Dancer always counted on Laseen deciding that she had to retain control of the Empire after Kel and Dancer's ten year or so absence, so they could fake their own deaths and ascend... which means, depending on how you look at it, that Kellanved not only counted on Laseen's ambition working in his favour, but also her ability to actually keep the Empire together once he was gone.

And i know this clashes somewhat with the sentiments ST expresses at the beginning of GotM, but, well... ummm.... it's all part of his diabolical master plan! yeah!

Quote

And her involment in "ascendant and god politics" is very phantomed for me. From wha I read she always answered to real danger for Empire, not something more. Releasing Raest was almost suicidal (OK, GotM), Domin was military danger to whole continent... IMO she wasnt interested in some fight against CG - if she even knew bout him /probably yes, but...)
...

I think she did, and i think the whole outlawing Dujek's army thing was part of her plan. It's even stated in DG and HoC, and it does appear in MoI that the underlying plan was always to uncover whatever force was behind the Domin and bring Rake into conflict with it.

Relatedly, at Darijhistan in GotM, the plan was for Rake to have to engage Raest and kill/weaken one/both to the point they could be taken out. It didn't work out that way, but that was the idea.

Kanubis, on 20 January 2010 - 12:28 PM, said:

Ulrik, on 20 January 2010 - 12:11 PM, said:

Urizen, on 20 January 2010 - 09:50 AM, said:

Ulrik, on 19 January 2010 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think that here is ICE inconsistent with SE. In tBH and RG is stated many times that Claw is badly mauled by Apsalar´s Shadow Dance and Kalam´s run. And situation in RotCG looked to me that there wasnt such decimation.

Doesn't Possum several times in the story think about how badly mauled the Claw was at Malaz City? I seem to remember him complaining to himself about the incompetence of the Claw agents left.

If so - my fault. I just got feeling that Claw was still working, no catastrophy. But I do not even know who Ghelel is:)

I'm on a reread of RotCG now, and Possum definately thinks about how the claw was decimated that night.

I think (it was very late last night that I read this bit) that losing such a large element of the Claw, and Pearl as well, is part of the reason Laseen has such a tenuous control over the empire at this point.

Yep. Part of the problem was that Kalam & co., in DG and again in TB, took out large chunks of loyal Claw as well as Black Glove (in TB). And we see Topper in RCG taking out ANY Claw sent in, again regardless of loyalty.

- Abyss, could say she was de-Clawed.

[Ulrik]

Abyss, on 20 January 2010 - 03:20 PM, said:

I think she did, and i think the whole outlawing Dujek's army thing was part of her plan. It's even stated in DG and HoC, and it does appear in MoI that the underlying plan was always to uncover whatever force was behind the Domin and bring Rake into conflict with it.

Relatedly, at Darijhistan in GotM, the plan was for Rake to have to engage Raest and kill/weaken one/both to the point they could be taken out. It didn't work out that way, but that was the idea.


- Abyss, could say she was de-Clawed.

I still think that her reasons to Dujek masterplan was to uncover "who" but only because it was threat to empire, not Burn, Wu, Pust´s mule... But hard to say now... Surly´s dead baby, Surly´s dead....

And Raest plan - I understand, but I still cant see how she wanted to manage even weakened Raest who just killed most badass of badasses. Lorn with otasword doesnt seem equal:)

And I agree with case of Kellanved/Cot. IMO they wanted to be overthrown and this was materpiece of evil plans:) Just little selfish, poork Urko and co.
(and GotM, well, he was just emotinally unstable...bad morning, hard times at Toilet of Shadows...who knows?)

[Pig Iron]

I still think Laseen was in on the plan. She got what in a way must have been the shit end of the bargain: to hold toghether the Empire that Kellanved and the rest of the "pirates" created through conquest, and do so with limited resources while the real war was fought elsewhere. That Dujek and Laseen, and later Tavore and Laseen was in collusion is hinted at rather strongly. And Kalam culled the corrupted Claw for Laseen; check the strong scene in TBH where they meet in the presence of Mallick and co. Another thing is that Laseen seems to have very little interest in power for its own sake, more like someone doing a job (for instance her appearances in ROTCG). Anyway, interesting discussion.

[Abyss]

Pig Iron, on 20 January 2010 - 07:06 PM, said:

... Kalam culled the corrupted Claw for Laseen; check the strong scene in TBH where they meet in the presence of Mallick and co. ...

That's what Laseen offers Kalam, but not what happens. There were loyal Claw as well as Black Glove set to ambush Tavore and co. After the meeting but before all hell breaks loose, Kalam tells Tavore he can walk back into that room and kill Rel. Tavore tells him he can try, but Jhistal's sorcery is elder and he's likely to fail. So they walk out and spring the Claw ambush. No distinction is made between Claw and Black Glove except for the one stalking Banaschar that Hellian punches in the brains. Pearl's 'Anti Kalam Hand' squad actually seems to be made up of loyalists, but that's really just speculation based on little more than the one survivor who refused to support Pearl shooting Kalam in the back.

I'm sure it didn't hurt Laseen to have a bunch of Black Glove get taken out, but given that they were a subversive element, she probably lost more loyal Claw than Rel lost Gloves.

- Abyss, could say the Glove got no love.

[Pig Iron]

"Pearl's 'Anti Kalam Hand' squad actually seems to be made up of loyalists, but that's really just speculation based on little more than the one survivor who refused to support Pearl shooting Kalam in the back."

You´re right, though it seemed to me for sure that Laseen was quite sympathetic to Kalam and cetrainly not to Mallick et al. It doesn't change the main premise that Laseen was trying to maneuver as well as possible at home without taking any resources from Tavore or Ganoes' projects. She was doing her best on the home front to the very end, with limited means.