[Terez]

I think it's already been good for him. I'd like to see how much his book sales have gone up since it was announced he'd finish WoT. I don't think it will hurt him, even if we don't like A Memory of Light.

[Optimus Prime]

I just don't really like Brandon Sanderson. I mean the Mistborn books aren't bad....but they are kinda "goody two shoes" fantasy to me.....

I don't see how he does this well unless RJ really did outline almost everything before he died.....I want death! I want destruction!

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I haven't read any of his stuff. I'm just afraid for his sake that no matter how good the book is, expectations being so high will lead the rabid (rabbit?) WoT fans to revolt. You will be able to hear the foot stamping from space.

[Werthead]

Possibly going back over old ground, but I haven't read this thread for ages:

Quote

RJ says that what she did doesn't require channeling, but I'd count that one as an error. For such a long series, there are surprisingly few of those.

Wasn't there a theory that Verin could have been using a well, like she did in Far Madding? That would explain that 'error', although I suppose RJ already did. If 'delving' was one of the old talents, like Perrin's wolf thing and Min's viewings, than that would also explain it, although I'm pretty sure delving is specified as a form of the One Power elsewhere.

As for Tear: the city has fallen tons of times. However, when the city falls, the Stone tends to surrender. That was how Artur Hawkwing took control of the city. The Prophecies say nothing about control of the Stone being handed over voluntarily to another force (as happened several times in the War of the Hundred Years), only that the Stone would never be taken by force of arms until the Dragon Reborn came along. Guaire Amalasan desperately tried to take the Stone in the War of the Second Dragon but he was fighting on multiple fronts and couldn't concentrate enough forces at ther city to force it to capitulate and then seize the fortress. It's a bit cheesy, but acceptable IMO. The biggest previous threat to the Stone would have been in the Trolloc Wars, and the Trolloc armies never came that far south.

[Terez]

Werthead;334569 said:

Wasn't there a theory that Verin could have been using a well, like she did in Far Madding? That would explain that 'error', although I suppose RJ already did.

Yeah, there have been a few times when I thought I could have explained something a little better than RJ did (usually when it was an on-the-spot book signing question). That doesn't happen very often, though.

Wert said:

If 'delving' was one of the old talents, like Perrin's wolf thing and Min's viewings, than that would also explain it, although I'm pretty sure delving is specified as a form of the One Power elsewhere.

The haters would point out that this is a hindsight "fix" by RJ, but Verin does say this:

RJ said:

TITLE - The Path of Daggers
PROLOGUE - Deceptive Appearances

In a firm, low voice, Verin gave her instructions. More like suggestions, though she phrased them as commands. Beldeine would have to find reasons within herself to obey; if she did not, then all this had been so much wasted effort.

With the final words, Verin pulled the other two threads of Spirit, and the tangle collapsed further. This time, though, it fell into what seemed perfect order, a pattern more precise, more complicated than the most intricate lace, and complete, tied off by the same action that began its shrinking. This time, it continued to fall inward on itself, inward around Beldeine’s head. Those faintly glowing threads sank into her, vanished. Her eyes rolled back in her head, and she began to thrash, limbs quivering. Verin held her as gently as she could, but Beldeine’s head still whipped from side to side, and her bare heels drummed on the carpets. Soon, only the most careful Delving would tell that anything had been done, and not even that would identify the weave. Verin had tested that carefully, and if she did say so herself, none surpassed her at Delving.

So there could be some implication here of what RJ said about it (from the FAQ):

WoTFAQ said:

VERINISM: Verin and the art of Stedding Channeling: in [TGH: 29, Among the Elders, 435], she inspects an Ogier who lost his mind to Machin Shin in the Ways. For all intents and purposes, it looks like she's Delving him with the OP. However, she is in a stedding, where touching the OP is impossible. Even more, nobody thinks this is weird!

EXPLANATION: At a post-ACOS signing [Vancouver, 24 August, 1996], RJ told Lara Beaton that "we're going to find out something in the next few books about people without souls and characteristics of them. (he started out saying that we're going to find out something significant about Verin, then stopped)." After Perrin's too-long sojourn in the wolf dream in WH, we learn that Aes Sedai are apparently familiar with these characteristics. Berelain, to Perrin: "'You slept like a man already dead. [Annoura] said you almost felt like someone who had lost his soul, cold no matter how many blankets were piled on you. I felt it, as well, when I touched you'" [WH: 5, Flags, 145]. So evidently, anyone who knows what they're looking for can tell when the soul is gone from a body, and Verin's examination of the Ogier in the stedding didn't have to involve channeling at all.

Verin could also have used a Well, per WH. Though a rather ex post facto solution to the discrepancy (and superfluous, given the above about soulless bodies), we now know that channeling is possible in a stedding. We have no evidence, however, that Verin actually possesses a Well, though if she did it would be interesting to speculate on how that relates to her arrest warrant in Far Madding...

The Well would have been a good explanation, but it doesn't match up with what RJ said at the signing report, while the first bit does.

[Terez]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;334567 said:

I haven't read any of his stuff.

Ah, then that explains the comments, if not why you felt justified in making them.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Terez;334603 said:

Ah, then that explains the comments, if not why you felt justified in making them.

My having read or not read BS's work is irrelevant to the comments i made. To repeat, no matter how good book 12 is, he's going to take shit for it. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that it'll be well done. Even so, I predict WoT fanboys (and fangirls, of course) will say that he didn't do it as well as RJ would have. NOt all of them, but a lot of them. After all of the waiting and the buildup and the high expectations, even if RJ had survived and wrote it himself, HE would probably have gotten ripped for it.

I think there is plenty of justification for me to say this. Look at just about any addition or conclusion to a widely and rabidly (rabbitly?) loved body of work in any genre or medium, and many times expectations are so unreasonably high that people feel let down.

Some examples? Ok, sure. To be fair, some of these actually DO suck, but others are just fine but people were hoping for unattainable levels of awesomeness and so were let down.

1. Reapers Gale
2. A Feast for Crows
3. The new Star Wars movies
4. Indiana Jones 4
5. The LotR movies (yes, there were plenty of people saying these were not as good as they should have been)
6. Matrix 2&3
7. Clerks 2
8. Kill Bill
9. Anything by M. Night Shamalangadingdong, post-6th sense
10. Snatch
11. The new Donaldson books

These are just a few examples, there are plenty more out there. The point, which I am fully qualified to make regardless of not having read BS, is that sometimes expectations are so high they are impossible to reach. Book 12 of WoT is such a situation. It could literally be the best novel ever written, and there will be some fanboy (or fangirl) somewhere posting on the internet that BS ruined the ending, let everyone down, and dishonored (or dishonoured) RJ's memory.

Specifically, which of my comments do you feel I was not justified in making?

Did you many think I meant I had never read RJ's stuff? I have, recently, all except for book 11. I was speaking about never having read BS's stuff. And from what i can tell, I said nothing unjustified, or even critical, about his writing.

[Terez]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;334611 said:

Specifically, which of my comments do you feel i was not justified in making?

That BS would do a better job of it than RJ would have.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Ah, I see. I justify that by saying this. I have no reason to think that BS won't do a good job, as I have no background to base that on. Since he was picked to finish one of the best selling and most beloved series ever, I can only assume that he's good. I haven't read anything of his to make me think otherwise.

RJ, on the other hand, I have read. And he's given me about 7 reasons to think he wouldn't have done a great job. Those seven reasons are...books 4-10 of the WoT series. I've had to fight myself to force my way through all of his books since book 3. So, to me, he's 0-7 in his last seven books. Not a big reason for optimism.

Add these two things together, and it equals me thinking that BS has a good shot of writing a better book than RJ. This might make you angry, since I know you are a big fan, but it shouldn't. I'm not insulting you for liking it. I just don't care for RJ's writing. This isn't something where you can convince me I'm wrong-you can't because it's opinion.

If it makes you angry when people don't like the same authors as you, I've got the first 9 books of the Sword of Truth I'll sell you, only been read once. Those guys have that attitude, of taking any criticism of their favorite author personally.

[Terez]

It doesn't make me angry...though it did make me wonder when you said it what the hell you were thinking, because I can't think of anyone else that has read both and thinks BS is anywhere close to being as good as RJ, much less better. It's not quite like saying you'd rather Tairy write the next Malazan book, but try to imagine.

[Optimus Prime]

RLY,

So you didn't think books 4-6 were the best of the series?

I thought the endings of all three were spectacular and well written. It was where I felt RJ had sort of "topped out" before he began the gradual and inevitable slide to mediocrity.

[Terez]

Xander;334624 said:

So you didn't think books 4-6 were the best of the series?

I think I've commented on this thread (or perhaps another) before that those three are my favorite, in the order 4, 6, 5.

[Optimus Prime]

I'd say the same, though the difference in quality IMO is small.

Book 7 had good parts but too much focus on the damn women. It's not that they are women...it's that they are like "hyper real" women. Too much sniffing and whining.

Book 8 I think was meant to have this dark and gritty feel...and a lot of Rand's POV was...I liked his mad moments but I didn't feel that RJ built on that enough.

Book 9 had the whole "Deus ex machina" ending and I didn't like how the Forsaken were so easily swatted aside.

Book 10 was just lame. A set up book but too little actual action.

I'll stop there.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Xander;334624 said:

RLY,

So you didn't think books 4-6 were the best of the series?

I thought the endings of all three were spectacular and well written. It was where I felt RJ had sort of "topped out" before he began the gradual and inevitable slide to mediocrity.

I did not. I thought the first couple started off good enough, some cliched aspects that were balanced by some neat ideas. Book 3 was still decent, but where I noticed something was wrong. Books 4-6 were not the worst of the series, but they were where I started noticing that I was no longer looking forward to chances to read or start a new book. I think it was about book seven where I had to literally force myself to read, and it literally put me in a bad mood.

Somewhere in this stretch I almost quit the series, and had to take a break. The only thing that got me back into it was it always annoys me when people talk shit about books they haven't read, so I needed to finish so I would have that right. Also, the only series I've ever not finished was SoT, and WoT did not deserve to be lumped together with that unholy pile of monkey spunk.

It's not that I think RJ has no redeeming features. He's got a lot of cool ideas. There are just some aspects of his writing that bother me so much that I have a hard time enjoying the good parts.

[Optimus Prime]

Cool. That's what I've always thought of WoT. Some great ideas, but too many sidetracking plot lines and distractions.

SoT, on the other hand, was and still remains the most abominable piece of trash I've ever had the misfortune of reading. It wouldn't be AS bad if the author wasn't a worthless pony-tailed turd.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

True enough. The worst series ever. TG did have a couple of good ideas, that if he had told them to a decent author to use they might have been something cool. It's buried in shit though. Absolute shit.

[Terez]

Xander;334629 said:

I'd say the same, though the difference in quality IMO is small.

This is true. I choose The Shadow Rising as my favorite mainly because it was the book where all the Two Rivers kids came into their own, so to speak. Rand takes charge of Tear and the Aiel and captures Asmodean, Mat gets his memories and his medallion, Perrin saves the Two Rivers and gets married, Nynaeve defeats Moghedien, and Egwene begins to master Tel'aran'rhiod. All good stuff, and there's more besides.

Quote

Book 7 had good parts but too much focus on the damn women. It's not that they are women...it's that they are like "hyper real" women. Too much sniffing and whining.

The Rand bits in this book are some of my favorite in the series. It's one of those times when the mystery is laid on thick, with the first 6 chapters being in Perrin's point of view (like the first chapters of The Dragon Reborn). Also, the later chapters that are in Rand's point of view are great, where he loses Lews Therin, goes into crazy seclusion, sends all his friends away, until Min brings him around. Then he goes off to the bargain with the Sea Folk, then to the Cairhienin/Tairen rebel camp, bubble of evil, Fain, and then Sammael.

I know what you mean about the women, but I don't see it as being a bad thing. They're over-dramatized, in much the same way that stage actors over-dramatize their characters. I like it. And I liked the Ebou Dar storyline a lot. Elayne taking charge of the Aes Sedai there was awesome. The discovery of the Kin I thought was exciting. Nynaeve breaking her block was awesome. The battle for the Bowl was fun, and speaking of Mat, the bits with Tylin in this book are great too.

Quote

Book 8 I think was meant to have this dark and gritty feel...and a lot of Rand's POV was...I liked his mad moments but I didn't feel that RJ built on that enough.

I think that what he was building came off quite well - Rand is losing it. By this point it's obvious. Lews Therin comes back during the Seanchan-Altara campaign, and that was interesting on many levels. Interesting things were revealed about Taim, his cronies, and Weiramon in those chapters. I also thought Egwene's chapters in this book were awesome - they were good in book 7, but book 8 is where she finally closes her fist on them.

Quote

Book 9 had the whole "Deus ex machina" ending and I didn't like how the Forsaken were so easily swatted aside.

It didn't seem all that easy to me. That's part of Cadsuane's purpose in Rand's company - she thinks when he won't let himself think, and she's a fine tactician. And they had to use all their new toys for something.

Quote

Book 10 was just lame. A set up book but too little actual action.

I know what you mean about too little action...I'm apparently one of the few that actually enjoyed the overlap of the beginning of 10 with the end of 9. It sort of represented to me the magnitude of the Cleansing, by working up to the faraway witness of it in a few different plotlines. I enjoyed Egwene in this one too, though things slowed down for her until her cliffhanger ending. Mat's chapters in this book and in book 9 were great of course - they always are. And I've said it a billion times, but I even liked Perrin's chapters. The least enjoyable chapters in the whole series I think were the ones in Elayne's point of view. She's the most annoying of the women to me. Most people go for Nynaeve or Egwene or Faile, but to me, Nynaeve is just hilarious, Egwene is awesome, and though Faile is weird about some things, I think overall she's a great character. And really, Elayne's not all that bad...she's just the least like me of all of them. She's nicer than the rest of them, but her thoughts often bore me.

[Optimus Prime]

It never gets old though



**EDIT**@Terez, Mat's POV saved a lot of the series for me at many weak points in the overall scene.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

This is weird. I have been missing book 11 for weeks. I think my subconscious hid it from me. I just now found it again, maybe my subconscious telling me it's time to get it read? If I have time between my SE reread and TtH getting here, I'll crack it open.

[Terez]

Xander said:

SoT, on the other hand, was and still remains the most abominable piece of trash I've ever had the misfortune of reading. It wouldn't be AS bad if the author wasn't a worthless pony-tailed turd.

I've often thought that as well...would I hate those books so much if Tairy wasn't such a fucktard? I think I would still dislike them, but that's such a HUGE factor in why I hate them that it's hard to say.

Raymond Luxury Yacht;334644 said:

TG did have a couple of good ideas, that if he had told them to a decent author to use they might have been something cool.

Right...I had some really cool ideas about what he could have done with the ending. But he screwed the ending up worse than anything in the series. For someone that goes on and on about the dignity and nobility of the human spirit, he sure didn't do it any justice with his ending. Justice to that theme would have been a revolt started in the Old world when Richard went down there that actually spread. He could have had a revolutionary army come up out of the Old World. Even in the last book, he could have done more with the game...Ja La? I forgot...anyway, he could have started a revolution within the camp of the army easily - he even gave hints that he was going to go there...but he didn't. He chose instead to depict human nature as something irrevocably despicable.

Not trying to turn this into a Tairy rant...just saying.