[RodeoRanch]

I eagerly await the day the last book comes out and then I can read a plot summary that explains the whole damn series for me. That way I can avoid thousands of pages of idiotic women tugging braids and smoothing skirts.

[Terez]

Cougar, on Aug 3 2009, 10:07 AM, said:

It's not real life, so no it wouldn't have failed, if Jordan had wanted it to he could have made it work and had her be less of an irritating sack of shit. Fact is he's written a pile of irritating characters for the sheer hell of it and it retards the story for 3 books while they toss each other off.

People are irritating sacks of shit, so RJ wrote it realistically - and really, he made Cadsuane a lot more likable than such a person would likely be in real life. Rand's mental situation is the premise of the entire series, as was discussed before, and his psyche dictates the situation with Cadsuane.

Really, I don't understand why she bothers people so much, nor do I see why the braid-tugging bothers people. People do that in real life, too - maybe not braid-tugging, but people have annoying habits that are similar, and it's hardly uncommon. Also, the smoothing skirts thing...do you guys just not notice how much women adjust their clothing, and how much more they do it when they're nervous? Why does that bother people?

[HoosierDaddy]

Once or twice it doesn't bother. Hell, the first 50 times it became merely predictable. After the 1000th time, I'm sure like others, I just got bored of reading it. Tedious and heinously boring. But, then again, I've come to the opinion that everybody is whiny as hell in this series. Rhuarc doesn't bitch, but rarely talks. Lan doesn't bitch all that much. Verin, I don't think, bitches all that much. Rand and Perrin are non-stop whine fests. Mat bitches all the time, but his is fairly entertaining, but he still bitches a lot.

[Terez]

HoosierDaddy, on Aug 3 2009, 04:52 PM, said:

Once or twice it doesn't bother. Hell, the first 50 times it became merely predictable. After the 1000th time, I'm sure like others, I just got bored of reading it. Tedious and heinously boring.

Meh, there are similar things in pretty much every work as long as this one. Maybe it doesn't bother me because I've never been a read-every-word type of person. I catch everything when I skim, and the skirt-smoothing is always just like something noticed out of the corner of my eye that lets me know the character is nervous.

I don't find any of the characters in WoT to be as whiny and annoying as, for example, Felisin (who nearly kept me from making it past Deadhouse Gates).

[HoosierDaddy]

The Mhybe is, perhaps, the closest thing to an all-out annoying character I've found in MbotF so far. Felisin was just a bitter slut. She went through far more hardships than nearly any of the unholy trio Aes Sedai (on page) (Egwene, Elyane, Nynaeve...) There are definite parts I can tolerate with any of the characters. The annoyance is like a sum is bigger than the parts sort of thing. Individually they are much more tolerant than say when 4 are in the same room together.

[Illuyankas]

HoosierDaddy, on Aug 4 2009, 12:41 AM, said:

Felisin was just a bitter slut.

ARGH YOU FUCKBIN

GOING 'HAY, IF I JUST GET CONTINUALLY RAPED BY THIS IMPORTANT FELLOW THEN I WON'T GET CONTINUALLY RAPED BY ALL THE OTHER MEN WHO WILL OTHERWISE CONTINUALLY RAPE ME' DOESN'T MAKE YOU A FUCKING SLUT, IT MAKES YOU SOMEONE WHO'S TRYING NOT TO GET CONTINUALLY RAPED ALL THE FUCKING TIME BY DOZENS OF PEOPLE WHILE EXISTING IN A LIVING HELL

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF THAT FAULTY AND INCORRECT ASSUMPTION PISSES ME OFF SO MUCH

[HoosierDaddy]

Note her actions, once outside of Skull-Cap, Illy. Plus, she's "bitter" because of all the stuff that happened to her THERE. She is a SLUT once she leaves the camp. Don't read into my responses what is not there.

[Illuyankas]

Sorry, I hadn't realised that after you leave the place where the only way you can stay 'safe', and more importantly alive, is to whore yourself out to someone connected to those in power, you shouldn't think that doing the same thing later on when you're still in danger could keep you safe and alive. Particularly if you're a traumatised and betrayed teenage girl with no experience of the outside world. And leave off the slut crap already, it's beneath you.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 04 August 2009 - 12:06 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Perhaps slut is the wrong word, but I can't think of the one I want to come off with. Putting it all down to trauma, I think, isn't necessarily correct. Sure, that made a major effect, but, she purposefully tries to sleep with Baudin to kill him. She was using her "sexuality" to make him vulnerable (in her mind), so putting it all down to trauma takes away from her choice in this instance, and in her attempt to seduce Truth in order to use him. Now, is that a lesson learned from Skull-Cap and the ship on the way over, I think? Yes, I'd agree with you there. It doesn't take away all culpability though.

I'll agree, by the end of the book, she has come to realize what she had been doing, and therefore, your point that the trauma was a major part of it is probably correct, I don't like putting it all down to that.

[Illuyankas]

I'm perfectly willing to accept that the way she felt using her sexuality as a weapon because it was the only thing that she had, and it had worked before (back when she was still under the whole 'Beneth wasn't a douchebag' delusion), was massively influenced by what she went through - she's making that stupid decision based on said delusion, after all - but I think we can end this with us amicably disagreeing on exactly how much influence the hell she escaped from had on her afterwards, up until the end of the book.

Also, isn't this a Wheel of Time thread?

[Cougar]

OK, Illy's right, calling her a slut is stupid, but not the place so on topic please chaps.

On the question of why the smoothing skirts, braid tugging etc irritates people so much. I never met anyone who didn't think it was deeply annoying, but why is it so irritating? I think it's two reasons, the repetition of the ticks (whilst nowhere near as frequent as people imagine) is irritating. Just because it's realistic, and it is. doesn't mean it adds anything to the story, when your reading an 800 page book which has a relatively slow pace anyway it is all the more glaring if a paragraph is wasted on how Egwene is drinking her tea whilst glaring at Rand. More than that though I think it becomes a bit of a shorthand for emotions which smacks a little of lazy writting from RJ.

Other elements I find mind numbing are, the girls always thinking about how disagreeable boys are, which reads verbatim like a 1950s teen romance book, the nature of Rands realtionships (he's a man in his 20s in a pseudo late-medieval world and he behaves like a 21st centry 14 year old emo all the way through) I just don't quite believe. I've heard people defend the way RJ wrote his relationships and more often his female characters by saying that Harriet had a big influence on them so they are more likely to be 'right', but somehow I just don't believe the characters could exist. I find myself with a nagging feeling that I'm reading too much of the authour's own realtionships in the writing. Now of course all authours do this (Tennesse Williams, who I love did this repeatedly) but I think it's the fact that so many of the characters seem too similar, too many of their realtionships are of a similar character and too many of them have interactions which become predictable, regardless of the actual participants.

Thing is about WoT it's a good concept, it's a little cliched but, it was started a long time ago so that's forgivable, the quality of the prose is good, there is demonstrable effort made to develop the characters (with some sucess). Presenting us with a world view where women behave like chauvanists challenges our expectations of the tropes of fantasy. The history of the world is fascinating, the idea that it is a past/future earth is cool and the magic system is pretty tidy. The problems have been: the pacing, which is like running through custard,the more effort you put in the slower it gets; and the sheer unbelievable irritation of reading so many of the main characters.

[Use Of Weapons]

*sticks hand up*

I'm not irritated by the braid-tugging/skirt-smoothing/calf-admiring minxes of the WoT.

[Cougar]

jitsukerr, on Aug 4 2009, 10:45 AM, said:

*sticks hand up*

I'm not irritated by the braid-tugging/skirt-smoothing/calf-admiring minxes of the WoT.

Your biscuit prize is in the post.

This post has been edited by Cougar: 04 August 2009 - 02:37 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

Why did my post attempting to get back on subject get erased (after the slut (wrong word) debacle)? I was talking about the female characters of WoT huffing, and that's completely on topic. If I would have erased stuff, it would have been other statements.... so?

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 04 August 2009 - 02:46 PM

[Cougar]

HoosierDaddy, on Aug 4 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

Why did my post attempting to get back on subject get erased (after the slut (wrong word) debacle)? I was talking about the female characters of WoT huffing, and that's completely on topic. If I would have erased stuff, it would have been other statements.... so?

If you have an issue with modding activities please PM a/the mod(s) don't bring it up in the thread that has already been modded

[D'rek]

This whole series soured for me as soon as they started teleporting (or that fast-travel with the disc thingy). If Rand is so much more powerful then people, and no one remembers how to teleport, why wouldn't he just do this -> Rand da Man and his Master Plan?

[HoosierDaddy]

He isn't that much more powerful than people. Both Taim and Logain can hold nearly as much as him, as well as Demandred. Also, Moridin/Ishamael and he were co-equal in the power, I think.

[D'rek]

HoosierDaddy, on Aug 4 2009, 03:35 PM, said:

He isn't that much more powerful than people. Both Taim and Logain can hold nearly as much as him, as well as Demandred. Also, Moridin/Ishamael and he were co-equal in the power, I think.

He beats Ishamael, what, 3 times in a row in the first couple books, while Ishamael has thousands of years of experience and Rand has none and is just going by 'gut'? Makes Rand sound a lot more powerful to me!

[HoosierDaddy]

Makes Rand sound like one of the Heroes of a Thousand Faces to me, and Ishamael another victim of the Diabolical Bad-Guy rules listy thing.

[Terez]

Been debating Rand's death over at Theoryland. The Aelfinn said he will die. Min said he will die. Everything is obviously tied up in Rand's blood being shed on the rocks and all. Why do people keep insisting he's not going to die? I suppose there's a chance he'll be resurrected, but we know he has to die.

I dread the body-swapping possibility though. But I have hope it won't go down quite like everyone seems to think it will. One thing seems clear, though - the last words Rand hears before he dies will be "I have won again, Lews Therin."