[Ammanas]

I always liked these two, despite their deceptive and annoying chatter, they remind me of Heckle and Jeckle, an old cartoon pair of talking magpies. It's hard to know exactly what pieces of what they say is true and false but hey, that's the speculative fun in all this.

So when Apsalar finds them, she observes they're twins and they're speaking Andii. Later when she joins up with the Bonehunters, Bottle states they're dragons. So, twin Andii soletaken.

C/T infer they serve Edgewalker and their rather transparent purpose is to keep an eye on Apsalar. How Edge knew Aps come across AND free them is anyone's guess. Anyway C/T mention the following during BH.

1) Baran killed them when they attempted to enter Shadow House, presumably to rob its "untold riches."

2) They've met the Mistress of Thieves and allegedly tried to steal from her temple coffers.

3) Curdle says "I want my throne back." Telorast responds, "me, too." Hmm, could there have been twin rulers of shadow ages ago? Andii soletaken ruling Shadow is very intriguing---the Edur would really love that. Maybe, altho they're being imprisoned makes it seems like theirs was another failed attempt to rule the House and "I want my Throne back" talk is wishful thinking. Or maybe they were deposed.

4) Being Andii seems a bit strange as the only ones we've seen resided in Bluerose and Moon's Spawn/Brood's army. When Apsalar first sees the bodies chained, she can't determine whether they are Edur or Andii. When Telorast speaks Andii, she concludes the corpses are Andii. Ahlrada Ahn provides an example of Andii speaking Edur, correct? A dubious conclusion on Aps part.

[Skywalker]

I always thought Telorast and Curdle were part of the horde of 'feral dragons' that got pwned by Rake and Killy in the aftermath of Kurald Emurlahn breaking up...

Can't imagine how Apsalar (the patron of thieves) plays into their story though

[Ammanas]

Skywalker;280313 said:

I always thought Telorast and Curdle were part of the horde of 'feral dragons' that got pwned by Rake and Killy in the aftermath of Kurald Emurlahn breaking up...

Can't imagine how Apsalar (the patron of thieves) plays into their story though

I like the feral theory except it doesn't explain how they speak Andii. I'd also say Bottle could be wrong and they're not dragons but that doesn't feel right.

Maybe Apsalar(Thief Mistress) doesn't play into their story, they simply tried to steal from her temple as an isolated event. Or they could be lying, it's hard to tell what is BS and what's truth when they start babbling.

[Mentalist]

ummm.. I believe they posessed a couple of andii bodies... and so they spoke Andii (maybe dragon-speak is incompatible with Andii throats?)

[Ammanas]

kud13;280329 said:

ummm.. I believe they posessed a couple of andii bodies... and so they spoke Andii (maybe dragon-speak is incompatible with Andii throats?)

I'll go back and re-read but if I remember correctly, Apsalar encountered them in ghost form--there was a short scene where Tel said "You're a ghost" and Aps retorted "No, no, you're the ghost." Aps goes on to say "I cannot permit you to possess bodies." So there was no possession until they took the lizard bodies.

[Mentalist]

were they not Andii ghost, though?
my theory (crazy as it may be), is that htey posessed Andii bodies, and then when they got killed in some way shape or form, htey retaine the ghost-forms of those bodies.

[Blues]

I always thought they were possessing a couple of dead Andii bodies and that accounts for how they knew the Andii language. If I'm not mistaken theres a quote when Apsalar first meets them that hints that the Andii language was not their native tongue.

Alas my tBH copy is with a friend atm.

[Ammanas]

kud13;280337 said:

were they not Andii ghost, though?
my theory (crazy as it may be), is that htey posessed Andii bodies, and then when they got killed in some way shape or form, htey retaine the ghost-forms of those bodies.

Yeah, let's think about this.

1) Apsalar finds ghosts hovering near chained Andii corpses. No dragon corpses or bones or any mention of anything draconean.

2) Telorast claims to remember one of the Andii corpses as her own.

2) What's more likely--an Andii trying to steal from Apsalar's(thief Mistress) temple or a dragon?

3) What's more likely--Andii or dragons trying to claim Shadow House. I'd say Andii--after all, three dragons tried it once and Rake got really, really upset. How dumb would other dragons have to be to try the same tactic?

4) What's more likely--Edgewalker having dragons or andii as agents. I know he's self described as an elemental force and maybe more powerful than dragons. However, the dragons I've seen in action(Ex: the five against Raest) don't back down or be subservient to anyone. I refer to true dragons, not Soletaken.

On the dragon argument side:

1) p38 "Are there imbrules here? Stantars. Luthuras?" asks Curdle. Apsalar responds "Those creatures you mentioned are of SD. Yet you speak Tiste Andii." Telorast says, "we do? why, that's even stranger." Curdle chips in, "Why, we assumed that's language you spoke" Apsalar shoots back, "Why? I'm not Andii."

2) Bottle seems certain when he tells Fiddler C/T are dragons.

3) p 38 " and even Kallor quailed before us" Curdle claims. I'd say it's more likely Andii would know of Kallor but that Kallor would be far more likely to quail before dragons.

4) Telorast's speech is mentioned as "strangely reptilian" on p39

My crazy theory is that they're neither Andii or dragon but some other sentient critter from SD. They attempted to take HH Shadow and failed, ending up as Edgewalker's agents. I would think Kallor would be most likely to quail before a creature he's never seen before and about whom he knows absolutely nothing.

This leads me to my own crazy theory. They were soletaken, maybe they

[Mentalist]

umm regarding the "Pro-Andii", argument 4
only 1 of the 5 dragon wan not soletaken--Silanah
the rest were andii....Besides, many dragons obeyed K'rul in shaping the parths...

[D'rek]

Well we can't trust a single thing Turdle and Celorast say. We have to take the stuff about them that is said and work from that before we start using the things they say. They blatantly contradict themselves, so it's obvious enough that they are lying plenty. The only things we can use their speech for with certainty is their knowledge of things and people, ie we know they know of Kallor, but we can't trust that Kallor actually quailed before them. They might never have even met Kallor, but they've heard of him...

and seriously, how the hell would Bottle know they're dragons... how does communicating with mosquitoes give him this information?!

[Ammanas]

A said:

Well we can't trust a single thing Turdle and Celorast say. We have to take the stuff about them that is said and work from that before we start using the things they say. They blatantly contradict themselves, so it's obvious enough that they are lying plenty. The only things we can use their speech for with certainty is their knowledge of things and people, ie we know they know of Kallor, but we can't trust that Kallor actually quailed before them. They might never have even met Kallor, but they've heard of him...

and seriously, how the hell would Bottle know they're dragons... how does communicating with mosquitoes give him this information?!

Hah, Fiddler bought it so I thought it was worth considering. Anyway, the mystery is now reduced. p81 Apsalar and Cot converse "Do you know what they were?
Aps "Thieves"
Cot "Yes"
Aps "Andii?"
Cot "No, but they lingered by the bodies, absorbing certain essences."

So it appears my earlier post was at least partially correct. Neither Andii or dragon. Unless one believes dragons would elect to be thieves.

And I agree, most C/T remarks appear to be imagined memories(we're Andii) or wishful thinking/boasting ("Kallor quailed before us.")

All in all, I still find them amusing. Especially if they do find a way to "cheat everyone."

[Dolorous Menhir]

They're like two little Iskaral Pusts. You can't trust anything they say, but there is a lot of information buried in there.

As you say, they're supposed to have picked up the Andii language by hanging around the Andii corpse that Apsalar originally found them near to. There's no reason at all to think they are Tiste Andii - I really doubt they are.

On the other hand, I trust Bottle's statement - that they are dead dragons. That's pretty much the only thing we know for sure about them.

[D'rek]

Indeed, I trust that statement being true as well, I just find it strange that Bottle knows these kinds of things...

Too bad Cot. doesn't elaborate on what they were thieving. Could've been petty riches like they say, but they could also have been attempting to 'steal' something like the Throne of Shadow, or a piece of KE, or the souls trapped in Shadowkeep, or anything else...

[Ammanas]

I thought you had it right the first post, A'Karonys. But let's forget what Bottle knew or thinks he knows. How can dragons be thieves? And why?

[D'rek]

Dragons can be thieves by stealing, just like anyone else. What would they steal? Anything. Why? Everyone's got their own reasons. The possibilities are endless.

Example:
Well, maybe dragons sometimes wish they could do stuff other than fly around aimlessly and help shape warrens. Suppose Telorast and Curdle wanted to take up fishing. Well they'd need a boat, but dragons ain't got no boats. And since they're dragons, they need a boat that can take a lot of weight/strain and will last a long time. Thus, they decide they need that edur blackwood stuff. They go into the shadowrealm to 'steal' it, but get caught...

[Mentalist]

A said:

Dragons can be thieves by stealing, just like anyone else. What would they steal? Anything. Why? Everyone's got their own reasons. The possibilities are endless.

Example:
Well, maybe dragons sometimes wish they could do stuff other than fly around aimlessly and help shape warrens. Suppose Telorast and Curdle wanted to take up fishing. Well they'd need a boat, but dragons ain't got no boats. And since they're dragons, they need a boat that can take a lot of weight/strain and will last a long time. Thus, they decide they need that edur blackwood stuff. They go into the shadowrealm to 'steal' it, but get caught...

loool, well, we've had demon farmers.... And I also trust Bottle that they are dragons. As for stealing --they wanted power. and no one said all dragons had to be smart....

[D'rek]

very very true

[Aptorian]

Man this is a terrible thread. So much talking out of the ass and so little sense coming out of it

Of course they are dragon ghosts. And dragon ghosts mean full eleint, not andii, wyval or lizard mice. It's not unbelievable that Bottle can spot a dragon spirit. Souls are the raw essense of a creature/person. I think the lowest of mages would be able to look at the cast of a soul and name it for what it is.

We've heard plenty of tales of ambitious dragons. If the three dragons chained in shadow could attempt to claim the throne, why not T and C?

While I really enjoy the mental picture of two enourmous dragons sneaking into a temple to try and steal gold, I bet much of the things that T and C have been up to was after they somehow lost their dragonbodies.

Cot, Raest, Scabby, etc prove that powerfull souls can move about and possses bodies. So lets say T and C were actually slain, and not just the victim of some tragic soul shifting accident, their spirits rise and instead of heading into that Jaghut Death bridge place we see in BH and RG, they decide to roam the earth.

We know that spirits suck up memories of the flesh. That's why they speak Andii. It's also why they start acting like small reptiles when they take over the mini-KCCM skeletons. T and C could have been hundreds of different creatures over time, human, barghast, tiste, hell they could even have owned elder race bodies once.

And really, you find it odd that dragons speak andii? Why isn't odd that they understand Apsalars common language then? Why do the three chained dragons understand Cots? What about Ganath or the Huntress understanding of Malazan and Letherii? Or Karsas understanding of Letherii?

EDIT: Funny though, they know Killy (this is speculation from RG) and she hasn't walked the earth since... well, the RG Prologue. That would actually lead me to believe that T and C were probably among the eleint that vied for a piece of shadow. They were probably killed by Rake or Killy.

[Sinisdar Toste]

ok bottle can decipher what kind of animal an animal is just by contacting its mind. he could easily have figured out what telorast and curdle truly were, because their minds still exist, he just has to reach out and brush them with his senses.

edit: also, what apt said

[Ammanas]

Aptorian;280675 said:

Man this is a terrible thread. So much talking out of the ass and so little sense coming out of it

Of course they are dragon ghosts. And dragon ghosts mean full eleint, not andii, wyval or lizard mice. It's not unbelievable that Bottle can spot a dragon spirit. Souls are the raw essense of a creature/person. I think the lowest of mages would be able to look at the cast of a soul and name it for what it is.

We've heard plenty of tales of ambitious dragons. If the three dragons chained in shadow could attempt to claim the throne, why not T and C?

While I really enjoy the mental picture of two enourmous dragons sneaking into a temple to try and steal gold, I bet much of the things that T and C have been up to was after they somehow lost their dragonbodies.

EDIT: Funny though, they know Killy (this is speculation from RG) and she hasn't walked the earth since... well, the RG Prologue. That would actually lead me to believe that T and C were probably among the eleint that vied for a piece of shadow. They were probably killed by Rake or Killy.

I like this thread, seems better than the 97th thread arguing is Dassem Traveller.

I agree with you, though. They did make a run for Shadow and failed. It seems the most logical reason to be serving Edgewalker. As far as them being thieves, I find that as ridiculous as you find this thread..