[Nequam]

Haha. Those were some fun-packed posts.

...well I'm personally going to forget about any timeline. Things worked out nice and perfect in my head before I came to the forums.

I'm sticking with Dujek being around 79 years old, but being remarkably healthy because of the whole Deadhouse thing.

[MecnunK]

Not sure I buy the idea of inverted command structure so that the right people would be on the ground given that Laseen tried to get the bridge burners killed enmasse in the mines(wj and rest were lucky to survive) then again in Darujhistan. It was well known that the mines were a totally useless idea to try to tunnel to the besieged city!

[Aptorian]

Tay would have us believe that the BBs were sent into the tunnels to protect them. The greatest mage of the empire wasn't aware that sorcery that destroys cities could make a tunnel colapse... Oopsie

personally I think that the inverted command structure is an "explanation" that Laseen has given Dujek to make him accept what the empire had done. Let's be honest here, how is Whiskey Jack, whose talent is leadership, better utilised as a sergent rather than as a commander like Dujek? Any of the Bonehunter squad leader we've seen so far could have done what WJ did in GotM. Probably even better because they wouldn't waste so much time brooding, being nostalgic and crying themselves to sleep.

It's a bullshit theory that sounds like empire "spindoctors" covering up the administrations fuck ups.

[Venerus]

I honestly think it's probably just a holdover from DMing. Makes story structure a lot easier to manage this way.

[Aptorian]

What does a holdover mean? And how does Dungeon Mastering a game reflect upon the conflicting versions of the events of pale and the empires politics between GotM and MoI?

[Abyss]

You raise a few interesting points...

Aptorian;280441 said:

Tay would have us believe that the BBs were sent into the tunnels to protect them. The greatest mage of the empire wasn't aware that sorcery that destroys cities could make a tunnel colapse... Oopsie

I grant you it's shady, but Tays subsequently apologized to WJ ("Yo, 'Jack, sorry about getting your entire command an horrible agonizing violent and highly clausterophobic death.... wow, buried alive, that has to suck. Bummer. Hey, put the broadsword down, dude... seriously, i'll fry your ass, don't think i won't, i totally pwnd Rake the other day...!").

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personally I think that the inverted command structure is an "explanation" that Laseen has given Dujek to make him accept what the empire had done.

Kalam accepted Laseen's explanation. hell, she even admitted trying to kill Dassem at the same time, which goes miles for honesty.

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Let's be honest here, how is Whiskey Jack, whose talent is leadership, better utilised as a sergent rather than as a commander like Dujek? Any of the Bonehunter squad leader we've seen so far could have done what WJ did in GotM.

Now this is tricky. And i grant, it may be whole crap - you're engaged in a protracted conflict against a god who has subverted entire empires. He's doing crazy shit and may or may not have the destruction of the planet as his agenda. It's all well and good to have brilliant military commanders fighting wars, but sometimes you need someone on the front line, seeing what's what with the grunts. All of the BBs were great SOLDIERS, but nothing we saw ever suggested any of them were great leaders or strategists. Picker, arguably the brightest of the bunch we see, was unhappy with command and her best plan involved storming the Pannion's castle with the BB survivors. At some point someone even comments about 'tribal chief' Trotts that he's a better soldier than leader. Mallet, maybe, but it's backwards to have the guy who patches people up be the one telling them to go get chopped up in the first place.

Whiskeyjack was a big picture kind of guy, so his perspective was valuable. It just happened that he was MORE valuiable resuming command of the Host in MoI.

Then again, it could all be bhederinshite.

- Abyss, trusts in SE, SE is good, SE is great...

[Aptorian]

I'll settle for it being empire double talk and weak plot structure that shouldn't be delved too deeply into.

[Raraku]

I have to agree with Apt and thanks to all for clearing that up
dont know how to do a collective rep but will when i find out
thanx

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Abyss;280472 said:

Now this is tricky. And i grant, it may be whole crap - you're engaged in a protracted conflict against a god who has subverted entire empires. He's doing crazy shit and may or may not have the destruction of the planet as his agenda. It's all well and good to have brilliant military commanders fighting wars, but sometimes you need someone on the front line, seeing what's what with the grunts. All of the BBs were great SOLDIERS, but nothing we saw ever suggested any of them were great leaders or strategists.

Whiskeyjack was a big picture kind of guy, so his perspective was valuable. It just happened that he was MORE valuiable resuming command of the Host in MoI.

WELL- this is an interesting proposition, and gets back to the rationale at the core of this explanation / excuse. Is it indeed more useful to have the best and the brightest down on the micromanagement level in the armies, getting shit done, or should they be orchestrating campaigns, and laying down the big-picture.

I think that Laseen isn't retarded (alright, not totally retarded, and this might not even be her idea, but I digress...) and in light of an impending conflict with CG forces, with a rather considerable 7C problema on the horizon, it seems to me, that in retrospect putting the good guys on the ground level was an excellent move. For 3 main reasons.

1) Look at the Malazan unofficial command structure, even beyond rank, the higher-ups looked to, consulted with, and frequently involved the "old guard" and the vets that were on hand. Even if WJ's rank wasn't Fist, or High Mage or Gigantic Baller, he was still on hand to share his experience.

2) In a conflict involving the CG, the worldly forces of the Malazans were set into many forced paths. the CoD was a only-option kind of endeavor. The Host really had no choice but to throw it's hat in with Brood's dudes to fight the Pannion. In light of the conflict, the big picture is pretty set- and the most effective way of optimizing the odds in favor of the Malazans is to optimize ground-level performance.

3) The CG's modus operandi seems to be to subvert, pervert, and convert (sounds like Abyss, Apt, and Brood...) whenever possible. By keeping the bamfs on the ground, it puts them in a position to check the authority of any coopted leadership. Being the middle-men in the command structure (even on the lower end) makes keeping command under control become more realistic (countermanding orders even if it means killing the superior officers if need be.)

Now that last point is a tad weak. So let's not speak of it. Not that I support the move to knock down the old guard, but it makes a bit o' sense.

This point has been extensively discussed elsewhere.

[D'rek]

Just on the subject of Dujek's age, just about every time we see him he is described as having "aged 10 years in a week" or "looking like a man a decade younger". I noted it at least 4 times in my last read of GotM and MoI.

[Gem Windcaster]

Hmm, this talk about Laseens inverted command structure -when I think about the events in BH - shouldn't she know that it would mean that the 'bad' people ends up at the top?

Is she doing it on purpose?

I know, the most probable is that she has no idea what she was doing, but the idea still has a hold on me.

[Ammanas]

Gem Windcaster;280567 said:

Hmm, this talk about Laseens inverted command structure -when I think about the events in BH - shouldn't she know that it would mean that the 'bad' people ends up at the top?

Is she doing it on purpose?

I know, the most probable is that she has no idea what she was doing, but the idea still has a hold on me.

She doesn't. She's so dumb she's impossible to like and belongs on your list. The Empire hasn't flourished under her control, just the opposite. This is why ST/CoT wanted her dead. All her attempts at removing the Old Guard have backfired on her. It's like Cot said--she never earned the Empire. I can't think of any action she's taken that's made the Empire stronger, bigger or better.

Matter of fact, here are my dumbest chars:

1) Pormqual - the whole Coltaine mess
2) Laseen - see above post
3) Bellurdan - Tattersail on the plain
4) Tayschrenn - basically anytime he obeys laseen's orders. He claims he thinks long term..I don't see him thinking at all

[Venerus]

She prevented the end of the world with the Pannion Domin. I think that's a fairly respectable accomplishment.

[Kalahinen]

Venerus;280578 said:

She prevented the end of the world with the Pannion Domin. I think that's a fairly respectable accomplishment.

So, is the question rather: "Was Caladan Brood so stupid to have destroyed the world without Anovandammer Rake's intervening?" So, how much of it was Laseen's achievement really?

[Ammanas]

Yes, she gave her permission. But Dujek/WJ/Brood/Rake developed the strategy and the Malazan troops did the heavy lifting. I have no direct proof but I still believe it was all Dujek's, not Laseen's idea.

[Nequam]

same here, she probably just gave the aproving nods...

[D'rek]

Under Laseen's rule, the Malazan Empire...

-conquered much of Genebackis, a distant continent no doubt more difficult to reinforce/supply then a near one like 7C, and against foes like the CrimGuard, Tiste Andii and Barghast
-defeated the Elder God SoCN
-defeated the Army of the Apocalypse and reconquered 7C
-defended itself in numerous naval clashes with the Tiste Edur
-(with allies) defeated the Pannion Domin
-and more!

Of course, you're saying "None of that was Laseen, she just sat on her damn throne." Well of course. That's what emperors/empresses do. Rhulad sits on his throne, the Pannion Seer sat on his chair-like thingamajig, and you can be sure Kellenvad sat on his throne doing seemingly little personal work while he was actively being the emperor. By this stream of logic, after conquering Malaz Isle and Unta, Kellenvad become horribly inefficacious and just gave 'approving nods' to Dassem Ultor's, Dancer's, Surly's and Tay's genius.

And of course you'll harp on the fact that she elevated Korbolo and Mallick, after all, she must be so incredibly stupid to let them take such high positions. Well, by the same rote, I would say that Kel and Dancer must have been so incredibly stupid to knowingly go back and get themselves assassinated by Laseen (hint, foreshadowing, hint). She's got a masterful plan and you're all going to see it soon... at least that's what I keep telling myself...

[Mentalist]

yes, the faithless one shall be admonished by RotCG (my fervent belief)

Killing of the Old Guard was Tay's idea. He's loyal to the Empire, and honestly believed that everyone had to accept Kel's death and move on serving Laseen. Those who wouldn't had to go.
The enfilade at pale was a fuckup by all sides involved and the discrepancies b/w gotM and MoI descriptions of it make it all the more complicated to dissect well. Take a leap of faith here.

Now, I'm willing to accept Laseen's not perfect and that she underestimated Rel allowing him to form the Phantom Glove and trying to force her hand like that. But I believe that there's a counter-move in the makings for that. it's just... Laseen's been portrayed as SO incompetent, you can't help but get a feeling that it's a sham. And once again, I ask the unbelievers: "Where is Topper?"

[D'rek]

Heck, let's take a massive leap and go a couple steps farther:

If Laseen were to allow Rel and Dom to assassinate her like she did Dancer and Kel, presumably she has it set up so she'll ascend or do something special like that. And personally I think that's when Topper comes in from the secret closet in the palace/Mock's Hold and stabs Dom and Rel.
Anyway, the question is: what kind of position/ability/whatever would Laseen ascend to? Kel and Dancer had the Azath knowledge of the Shadow Moon thingamajig. Is there a different path that we know of that Laseen could take?

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Ha I just noticed that too...