[Raraku]

Dont know if I should put this in the MOI threads but anyway...
With all the info we have on Whiskeyjack and Onearm, Dujek was there with Dancer, Surly, Nok and the others in Deadhouse but even then it was Dujek calling Whiskeyjack "Sir". Could it be a mistake or was Whiskeyjack superior in some way to Dujek that caused him to be promoted above him???
A quote or an explaination will do. Thanx

[Optimus Prime]

Remember, before the "restructuring" of the Malazan military Structure, WJ was a Commander and Dujek was a sergeant under him, I believe.

Do a re-read of the prologue for GotM...and there's a snippet of this there. WJ sends a regiment under Dujek to quell the riots in the city.

WJ, like many high rankers such as Stormy and Gesler, was much higher in the chain before Lasseen either murdered or demoted the "Old Guard".

[Raraku]

That i got but Dujek knew Lasseen before WJ did and yet WJ was higher in the chain of command. I mean shouldnt Dujek be above WJ due to his seniority in knowing all the people hiding in Deadhouse before WJ.
Also Stormy and Gesler were high up and then demoted but they both served under someone (Urko or Crust cant remember which one)

[Optimus Prime]

We really don't know at what moment WJ joined up.....and who knows...maybe he was so good he flew up the ranks?

[Raraku]

Well thats what i thought but i was kinda hoping I missed something that i couldnt find cause i dont have all my books with me and the e books have way too many mistakes

[Aptorian]

You also have to remember, Dujek was "just a boy" or something like that when the Old Guard took up room in the Deadhouse. We don't know what Dujeks role in the family affairs were back when. He could have just been an errand boy. Only later, when the expansion of the empire was well under way did Dujek begin his training. Like how Toc the Elder... or was that Duiker?... well, like they were trained to become what they were.

[Optimus Prime]

Yeah Dujek could've been a stableboy.

WJ probably came in mature and already a soldier of some repute.

[Aptorian]

A Mason that became a soldier.

[Dancer+]

WJ was certainly talented, he was prominent enough to argue with Dassem about battle tactics in the heat of battle - and for Dassem to take notice presumably. He also could defend himself when sparring against Dassem. Both of these equate to 'an amazing soldier/commander' although those two things in themselves don't guarantee anything. His leadership abilities pretty much clinch it however.

[Daemon_Monkey]

Well there was a scene in MoI where dujek is talking to WJ about how Laseen "inverted the command structure" so that "the right people were on the ground when the time came", referring, i think, to Shadowthrone and Cotillion's move against the empire, i believe this referred to Stormy and Gesler as well

[Imperial Historian]

I'm of the opinion that the dujek mentioned in HoC as a boy involved with the deadhouse group is not the same as dujek onearm, as 1) dujek onearm is specifically referenced as being 79 years old, wheras the inhabitation of the deadhouse began approximately 100 years ago and 2) at no point is it mentioned that he was part of the deadhouse group

I think dujek onearm is a descendant or named after the dujek mentioned as part of the deadhouse group.

[Nequam]

Wait, what? The whole deadhouse thing happened almost 100 years ago? I didn't pick that up anywhere. How old would WJ and others be then?
I'm confused now...

[Imperial Historian]

At the start of GotM, the empire is 96 years old, and since the empire was founded after kelvanned took over malaz isle, which took place after he occupied the deadhouse, then lasseen and co must all be 100+

Admittedly this could be a timeline error, but I like to think Erikson wouldn't have let one that major slip by him...

[Kalahinen]

Erikson probably did a radio-carbon dating and as is known the results tend to be a little inaccurate, +/- 100 years is still a small thing

[Skywalker]

The Timeline Is Not Important


it is however, irreconcilable

[Abyss]

Daemon_Monkey;280182 said:

Well there was a scene in MoI where dujek is talking to WJ about how Laseen "inverted the command structure" so that "the right people were on the ground when the time came", referring, i think, to Shadowthrone and Cotillion's move against the empire, i believe this referred to Stormy and Gesler as well

You're absolutely right in raising this scene, but i take a different view of it.

Y'see, there's two (of many) possibilities:

One is that WJ was demoted because rather than oppose Laseen's takeover, he supported it - a significant move by someone who arguably could have taken over the Empire himself. She couldn't have him killed, but demoting him meant she could keep him under control and discreditted (sort of - no one close to him believed the negative hype).

The other theory runs that WJ was demoted to ensure that when the conflict with the CG broke out (as was the case with the Pannion Domin's invasion of Genabackis, tho the Malazan Empire wasn't sure of this at the time), the front line people on the ground were in position to make the decisions necessary (ie: if we're going to get a lot of soldiers killed, here's where it matters most). The problem with this theory is it's unclear whether it was Laseen's plan, or Kellanved, and who, other than WJ and Dujek, were in on it.

That said, it's perfectly clear from Laseen's corpse chat with Kalam at the end of DG that she was always behind the plan to fake Dujek's outlaw status, even tho Tayshrenn and other elements (ie: Nightchill's move for Dragnipur, Claw interference, the Crimson Guard winning, the Moranth alliance destabilizing...) screwed it up, killed the BBs amongst others and making it necessary for WJ to bugger off to Darujhistan and then reclaim second-in-command of the outlawed Host.

So either way, it wasn't Kel and Dancer's plan against the Empire, but it may have been their plan against the CG.

So it's unclear just how WJ ended up demoted, but it seems clear that it was supposed to happen, or that once it happened, there was a reason to keep him there.

Dujek's part in this is similar, in that he ensured a more than competent commander stayed in place even when a just as/more competent commander was demoted. Chances are Dujek rose in prominence AFTER Laseen took over, since he's not mentioned in NoK as one of Dassem's subcommanders.

Also, the timeline is not important.

- Abyss, loves a good twisted conspiracy plot that's completely twisted...

[Cougar]

I thought there wasn't a timline issue here anyway because residency of the deadhouse had extended their lives and given them other benefits.

[Mentalist]

Cougar;280363 said:

I thought there wasn't a timline issue here anyway because residency of the deadhouse had extended their lives and given them other benefits.

still, a Dujek that's over 100 years old wouldn't be referred to as "exactly 79 years old"...

As for the command structure--there's a bit in MoI of Picker and Blend talking about how many of the rank-and-file BBs used to be officers... Mallet, Kalam, Spindle... so that supports the "inverted command structure idea"

[Kurt Montandon]

Dujek's age as "79" is from Tattersail's perspective, not from his own.

That's probably just his official age, as of GotM.

[Abyss]

Or he's been 79 for a decade or two.

- Abyss, has been 21 for close to 300 years...