[Jheral]

Regarding Quick Ben, I would just like to point out that the thing with Icarium was, much the same as the Ceda's display with Hannan Mosag, not 'on the fly' (so to speak). What he was using there was, I am certain, the 'spells' he had prepared ahead of time to use to help Kalam.

The Bonehunters, on p835, said:

Well. He had unveiled four warrens, woven an even dozen sorcerous spells, all eager to be sprung loose - his hands itched, then burned, as if he was repeatedly dipping them in acid.

Though, admittedly, he had much less time to prepare than Kuru Qan had for his ritual.

When it comes to his confrontation with Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, I would say that they grossly underestimated him, and that that is the only reason he was able to beat them (on a related note, the whole "12 warrens since he hit them twice with 6" thing some people have mentioned makes no sense; If i punch you three times, it doesn't mean I have three hands, right? I know he has more than seven, but that kind of thinking just seems silly).

Also, he was using his own powers there, not Hood's. In fact, I suspect he deliberately used up all his power on them so he'd have a reason to draw on Talamands' power, to see how reliable he was. As I recall, it wasn't until after his talk with them that he confronted Hood(though my memory might not be what it should be here; it's been a long time since I last read MoI)

[Aptorian]

It's Bauchelin that comments that Quick Ben must have expended all his power since he used 6-7 warrens. Then Quick hits him with the other 6-7 warrens he has.

[Jheral]

Precisely. He thought that Quick must have spent all his available power, but he hadn't, and was able to do the same thing again. I believe I covered that with the 'underestimating' part (there was never mention of him having more than 6 warrens, since he could easily have used the same 6 warrens as the first time. It would likely have to be the same, since they had much the same result).

[Aptorian]

But was that the impression you got?

I've never heard anyone doubt that Quick used all his warrens in that scene. From Bauchelins remark I found it quite probable that a mage can expend themselves in a giant burst and then, for a while, be unable to draw more power from that warren.

[Jheral]

The impression I got was that Bauchelain thought that Quick couldn't possibly be strong enough to channel that many warrens with such control more than once without completely using up his strength(so to speak), which when you think about it is a reasonable assumption, since very few mages can do that.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Ah but then after using magic against Bauchelain he says to Talamndas that now he's really worn out. Thus this proves that after usig for two times 6 warrens he had no other power left.

[ch'arlz]

Bauchelain the Evil;349000 said:

Ah but then after using magic against Bauchelain he says to Talamndas that now he's really worn out. Thus this proves that after usig for two times 6 warrens he had no other power left.

"really worn out" doesn't necessarily equate to "no other power left."

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I was just paraphrasing I think that was QB meaning.

[End of Disc One]

Bauchelain said something like "you must be used up. You should have held back on at least half your warrens." I took it the same way Apt did, that the six he used were worn out for the time, for him.

[Daemon_Monkey]

Maybe it's just me but ive always felt a little bit uneasy about that scene. How is it that he supposedly uses all of his energy yet all he actually does is throw two mages (both of whom seemed to have little in the way of wards and other defences) through a wall and yet, later on in the book does things beyond most high mages. (The scene in MoI where he conjures 12 demons that actually do damage, i remember one of the marines saying that it took a master adept to do that with one illusion!).

Unless he was simply showing off by unleashing all his power then stopping it i can't see how that is possible.

[Imperial Historian]

It's widely believed that Quick Ben's prowess in the battle in MOI is due to his deal with hood, QB demand that he can call on hood at a later time, and later it is suggested that a god has stepped onto the field in this battle, suggesting it was quick's mastery and hood's power combined which allowed him to do this.

[Daemon_Monkey]

Imperial Historian;350630 said:

It's widely believed that Quick Ben's prowess in the battle in MOI is due to his deal with hood, QB demand that he can call on hood at a later time, and later it is suggested that a god has stepped onto the field in this battle, suggesting it was quick's mastery and hood's power combined which allowed him to do this.

Is there actually any evidence for that though? QB is exhausted at the end of the battle suggesting that he has at least been using his own power as well, additionally, wouldn't Hood's power have been channeled through Hood's own warren as opposed to meanas/mockra.
That said there was a scene in MoI where he drew on talamandras to traverse Serc in capustan but i can't remeber if that was talamandras' power or just his purifying effect.

Also, on the original topic, I would place beak as one of the most powerful mages, definately top 5; so far he is the only person ascendant or not able to draw on all the warrens naturally. (I'm not sure 'bout QB but he got it from the other soul's anyway).

[Silencer]

Jheral;348748 said:

Regarding Quick Ben, I would just like to point out that the thing with Icarium was, much the same as the Ceda's display with Hannan Mosag, not 'on the fly' (so to speak). What he was using there was, I am certain, the 'spells' he had prepared ahead of time to use to help Kalam.
Though, admittedly, he had much less time to prepare than Kuru Qan had for his ritual.

When it comes to his confrontation with Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, I would say that they grossly underestimated him, and that that is the only reason he was able to beat them (on a related note, the whole "12 warrens since he hit them twice with 6" thing some people have mentioned makes no sense; If i punch you three times, it doesn't mean I have three hands, right? I know he has more than seven, but that kind of thinking just seems silly).

Also, he was using his own powers there, not Hood's. In fact, I suspect he deliberately used up all his power on them so he'd have a reason to draw on Talamands' power, to see how reliable he was. As I recall, it wasn't until after his talk with them that he confronted Hood(though my memory might not be what it should be here; it's been a long time since I last read MoI)

I agree with most of what you said here, but I disagree with the first comment - against Icarium, he was unleashing in waves. That's not something he would have prepared to use to get to Kalam. What he had prepared were rituals and such to get him around Rel's traps. And probably a few nasty ones, but not waves of power. No way.

Also, I got the feeling that the stuff at Coral in MOI, was QB. For a start, he IS a master of illusion, he was a High Priest of Shadow, and that alone speaks volumes! Next, he later says "Time's now, Talamandas!" - this, to me, indicates that it was at THIS point he starting using power from Talamandas. Not before. But that's just what it seemed like to me.

@Daemon Monkey - that was just after he beat Bauchelain, he was using the power of Talamandas, to test it out, and to talk to Hood - he had to make sure that he could get a lot if necessary.

[FCarrots]

About Quick's warren count in the Bauchelain/KB scene, I believe it's quote teim!

Quote

'Thank you. I'll not deny I am impressed by your mastery
of six warrens, Quick Ben. In retrospect, you should have
held back on at least half of what you command.' The man
made to rise.
'But, Bauchelain,' the wizard replied, 'I did.'
The divan, and the man on it, fared little better when
struck by the power of a half-dozen bound warrens than had
the wall and Korbal Broach moments earlier.

So the only ambiguity is the way Bauch says "half of what you command" and not "half of your warrens". I still think--having mentioned the six warrens in the sentence before--he was referring to warren count and not stamina.

[Daemon_Monkey]

Despite this it seems at odds with the rest of the series simply because it implies that a mage can only access each warren once.

[Aptorian]

No that's not the way it's supposed to be understood. Quick expended his warren in one big burst, draining his ressources.

Think of it like you have basin of water that slowly fills itself and you'd normaly use a tap to take water from this resevoir. But instead you pull some kind of stop and the water floods out leaving the resevoir empty and you're now unable to tap more water from the basin before iit refills.

[Silencer]

That's a good way of putting it, Apt.
The other thing we have to consider is the implications of physical damage resulting from drawing too much power - Quick might not have been used up, simply mentally and/or physically exhausted. That's one other option for why he wasn't able to do any more.
I don't think that applies in this situation, however. It's more of a reason for the mages getting "used up" with the big battles, like Quick against Icarium - whereas in this case it's more like what Apt said.

[Daemon_Monkey]

Aptorian;350905 said:

No that's not the way it's supposed to be understood. Quick expended his warren in one big burst, draining his ressources.

Think of it like you have basin of water that slowly fills itself and you'd normaly use a tap to take water from this resevoir. But instead you pull some kind of stop and the water floods out leaving the resevoir empty and you're now unable to tap more water from the basin before iit refills.

But this brings me back to my original point, given that, even at this stage QB is an incredibly powerful/skilled mage, why did he have to use all his warrens to knock out two people?

[Aptorian]

Because Bauchelin and Korbald Broach aren't just two people. They're powerfull sorcerors. Quick Ben knew this and as such he made sure to hit them hard and hit them fast.

He probably sensed their wards and as such knew what it would take to knock them out.

[Daemon_Monkey]

I thought it had been decided that Bauchelin and broach were not defending them selves, Broach was in the middle of transforming and Bauchelin believed QB to be used up so neither of the two would have been particuarly well defended