[Ain't_It_Just_]

Dancer;285453 said:

She's paranoid, Dassem had so much support. Read the passage in NoK before Y'Ghatan. I still don't understand, Dassem didn't want the throne - he was an ascendant for one. Ascendants don't make good emperors at all, it's like a tag saying "come and get this empire and destroy it because I'm a power-hungry bastard".

I'm afraid... I haven't read NoK. So, as Sha'ik said, cease equivocating.

Off-topic:

And who else considers it a big laugh that that dickhole Kobolo Dom is calling himself "First Sword"? A FS has to be a great commander, a tactical genius and a master swordsman. That's what I think anyway. I cannot wait to see him reduced to the gibbering wreck he was when Kalam and QB found him in HoC, when QT has exploded in rebellion and he's lost all his forces.

[chthonian]

personally i thought of dassem as a similar kind of character to whiskeyjack. if he had to rule, he would (and by all accounts, whiskeyjack was best placed to try and overthrow laseen), but as someone states in MoI (maybe its whiskeyjack himself), "all the important people are at ground level"... maybe this explains laseen's restructuring, it wasn't to take them out of high ranking positions but to reinforce the base of command following her succession.

is it possible that she's being made out to be bad but with good intentions, as stated earlier in this thread?


also, off topic but NoK has reminded me, i liked the small reference to kiska in tBH near the start, hehe, when reading NoK i wondered what position kiska might take within the empire, whether she'd try out to be lorn or something, but no, seems she was content with being tayshrenn's personal bodyguard. =D

[Dancer+]

Ain said:

I'm afraid... I haven't read NoK. So, as Sha'ik said, cease equivocating.

I won't cease equivocating just for your personal benefit, others have read NoK. It's a fair enough point anyway, plus I've told you all you need to know.

Apt, quotes or it didn't happen :rolleyes: Dassem ruling the empire, I could see it happening but it would be an extremely bad precedent to set.

[Fifty]

Kimloc;274177 said:

Royal Napan line--is there a quote stating that?

I could not point you to a quote, but this is 100% correct. I remember reading it very clearly.

She was never "just a serving wench". I do not recall this next bit quite so clearly, but I think the royal family had been deposed and she had fled for her life.

[Fifty]

Kimloc;273733 said:

4) She let Coltaine die or, at the very least, made zero effort to prevent his demise--she could have sent Tay and 100 or so claws to Aren to force Pormqual to ride out and help. Or replace or execute him if he refused. The point is, she did NOTHING.

She did not let Coltaine die - she sent the vial that was supposed to keep him alive that was instead used by Duiker.

[Ahk-Thenrah]

the quote about laseen being of the royal line is in bonehunters, the conversation between Apsalar and Urko, where he explains why he and cartheron "drowned" cos they didn't want to be implicated as accomplices, cos they are napan themselves. he also said how she never got the joke (ie: the drownings) again, no book at hand, but its there, in Apt's and Fifty's defence.

[Salt-Man Z]

I'm pretty sure it's mentioned earlier, too, in one of the first two books.

[Mentalist]

it's in HoC... during Nok's "confession"...

[Ammanas]

Fifty;287305 said:

She did not let Coltaine die - she sent the vial that was supposed to keep him alive that was instead used by Duiker.

Quick Ben made that and sent it via the Trygalle, not Laseen.

[Fifty]

james9700;287329 said:

Quick Ben made that and sent it via the Trygalle, not Laseen.

Well, admittedly it was not quite as a I recalled, but I believe this passage in general is pertinent to the discussion.

Quote

Karpolan nodded. 'With financial assistance from a certain cabal in Darujhistan. His words were thus: "The Empress cannot lose such leaders as Coltaine of the Crow Clan."' The Trader grinned. "Extraordinary for an outlaw under death sentence, wouldn't you say?' He leaned forward and held out a hand, palm up. Something shimmered into existence on it, a small oblong of smoky grey glass on a silver chain. 'And from an alarmingly mysterious mage among the Bridgeburners this gift was fashioned.' He held it out to Coltaine. 'For you. Wear it. At all times, Fist.'

The Wickan scowled and made no move to accept it.

Karpolan's smile was wistful. 'Dujek is preparde to pull rank on this, friend-'

'An outlaw pulling rank?'

'Ah well, I admit I voiced the same query. His reply was this: "Never underestimate the Empress."'

At best that implies the gift was at Laseen's instruction, though I admit that is a stretch. At worst it suggests Dujek has more faith in Laseen than most of us. Seeing as she also manages to sway Kalam's more murderous impulses, she must have something going for her. Even if she is not quite a genius on Kruppe's level, she is not quite a mental midget.

[Ammanas]

Fifty;287410 said:

Well, admittedly it was not quite as a I recalled, but I believe this passage in general is pertinent to the discussion.



At best that implies the gift was at Laseen's instruction, though I admit that is a stretch. At worst it suggests Dujek has more faith in Laseen than most of us. Seeing as she also manages to sway Kalam's more murderous impulses, she must have something going for her. Even if she is not quite a genius on Kruppe's level, she is not quite a mental midget.

My interpretation matches your "At worst it suggests Dujek has" and the reason is simple--Laseen is the Empress, regardless of who likes or dislikes that fact, it is a fact. So, it only makes sense that she will get support and even the benefit of the doubt in many instances and crises. Past a certain point the situation becomes "These generals and powerful mages, the "Old Hands," have lost patience with what they see as Laseen's mismanagement and have selected their own replacement."

I give myself a fifty percent chance of being correct. The other half belongs to the Laseen crowd. Personally, I think she's too dumb to mow yards for a living. I'm almost curious enough to spend the 150USD to see if the issue is settled in RoTCG.

[acesn8s]

Salt-Man Z;287321 said:

I'm pretty sure it's mentioned earlier, too, in one of the first two books.

Are you thinking about the prologue in GotM where a young Paran tells Whiskeyjack and Fiddler the translation of 'Laseen'?

[Salt-Man Z]

No. I'm sure there was an offhand comment by someone in either GotM or DG about her being Napan royalty. Heboric, perhaps? I don't know.

[D'rek]

that is also in Admiral Nok's explanation to tavore in HoC.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Yeah, it was either Nok or Tavore saying that Laseen was of the royal Napan line. Makes me think that Crust and Urko will want first dibs on burning her at the stake...

[acesn8s]

Salt-Man Z;287447 said:

No. I'm sure there was an offhand comment by someone in either GotM or DG about her being Napan royalty. Heboric, perhaps? I don't know.

I just looked up Paran's translation of Laseen. It's "Thronemaster" so I was wrong. I just started my Deadhouse Gates re-read yesterday, so I'll keep an eye out for it. :cool:

[Wordmerchant]

Wacky theory time! :shocked:

Surly/Laseen is SE's shaved knuckle.

1 - Way back in Malaz City, when Kel and Dancer ran the bar, their waitress was... Surly.
Implication - She was part of the core group who created and built the Malazan Empire. This group, by and large, are singularly competent in what they do. To suddenly display such appalling and ongoing incompetence is not reasonable.

2 - During an attempted "assassination" by Laseen, the "Thronemaster", these two do not die, but ascend to House Shadow.
Implication - This is a deliberate planned action, taken with Kel and Dancer's knowledge and participation.

3 - Kalam goes to assassinate Laseen, and leaves the Hold with the cryptic statement that there was no one alive in the building, yet we know he spoke to Laseen.
Implication - Laseen is not "alive" in the normal sense of the word.

4 - Every one of Laseen's stupid activities ultimately winds up placing resources where they are best suited and prepared to battle the influence of the CG.
Implication - Every one of these actions is for a reason other than the stated one.

5 - Laseen is never a POV character. Her appearances and actions are always viewed from another perspective.
Implication - Writing from her POV would require revealing information about her thoughts and motivations that would change everyone's view of her.

Conclusion - Laseen is Queen of High House Shadow, and continues to work as closely as she always has with her two compatriots.

It is entirely likely that I have gone as mad as the Emperor, so feel free to shoot holes in this theory.

[Skywalker]

In a nutshell, the possibility of your theory being correct is slim

Wordmerchant;367422 said:

1 - Way back in Malaz City, when Kel and Dancer ran the bar, their waitress was... Surly.
Implication - She was part of the core group who created and built the Malazan Empire. This group, by and large, are singularly competent in what they do. To suddenly display such appalling and ongoing incompetence is not reasonable.

She was... but she isn't the shaved knuckle in the hole. Kel and Dancer trusted no one (not even each other completely)

Wordmerchant;367422 said:

2 - During an attempted "assassination" by Laseen, the "Thronemaster", these two do not die, but ascend to House Shadow.
Implication - This is a deliberate planned action, taken with Kel and Dancer's knowledge and participation.

It was probably planned, by Kel and Dancer... but Laseen and Tayschrenn were at best unknowing pawns in the proceedings...

Wordmerchant;367422 said:

3 - Kalam goes to assassinate Laseen, and leaves the Hold with the cryptic statement that there was no one alive in the building, yet we know he spoke to Laseen.
Implication - Laseen is not "alive" in the normal sense of the word.

Laseen wasn't really present that night in person... she spoke to Kalam sort of through corpse-ventriloquism. So Kalam's statement was true, but he did - remotely - speak with Laseen.

Wordmerchant;367422 said:

4 - Every one of Laseen's stupid activities ultimately winds up placing resources where they are best suited and prepared to battle the influence of the CG.
Implication - Every one of these actions is for a reason other than the stated one.

She is incompetent, but not a complete loss. Inverting the command structure was a good move... and also suited her need to secure the throne for herself. Same with dealing with Genabackis (Dujek's fake rebellion) and Seven Cities (the 14th) - her response was proportional and hard hitting. She has however fucked up seriously and often, and consequences will come from it...

Wordmerchant;367422 said:

5 - Laseen is never a POV character. Her appearances and actions are always viewed from another perspective.
Implication - Writing from her POV would require revealing information about her thoughts and motivations that would change everyone's view of her.

I think this is just SE mucking with our minds, keeping the Night of Knives/ ST and Cots ascension off screen and keeping Laseen/ the old guard shrouded in mystery... perhaps more will be clear on this in RoTCG?

Wordmerchant;367422 said:

Conclusion - Laseen is Queen of High House Shadow, and continues to work as closely as she always has with her two compatriots.

More to come in RoTCG I think...

[BeLeG]

Laseen is not incompetent,she didnt have the Old Guard to help her.
Kellanved had the talent to gather the best people around him.
Those guys didnt want to work for Laseen.

[eekwibble]

1. There is no implication. We know she was one of the original posse. Kel, Dancer, Dassem, Tay, Surly and the Crust bro's. As much is written!

2. The assassination was planned. NoK spoiler;

Spoiler

Not with Kel and Dancer's knowledge but instigated by them!

3. She spoke to Kal via magic. Which warren was used is debatable. We don't know who she was with or even where she actually was at the time but she definately exists.

4. I can't elaborate on Skywalker's answer. It says pretty much everything.

5. Neither is the CG or any of the Seguleh or the Pannion Seer or any number of other characters that SE wants to keep mysterious. Nothing remarkable there.

Conclusion - Laseen is a pigmy from an Australasian island who sailed too far up and got caught by a flying turtle and dropped over the isthmus of Korel and swam to the nearest dhenrabi to ask for directions to Quon Tali, caught the first ship to Malaz and lied aboot her heritage, got picked up by Kel 'cause he saw she was as mad as him and the rest is [linet]garbage[/linet] history!

I hope that helped.