[Warqueen]

What is up with this chick anyway. How can she afford to throw away so many pieces of the armies that have expanded her empire to such an extent? I know she thinks they will betray her or take over but she can't keep replacing them...there aren't that many great military minds out there....so what does she plan to do once all those brilliant minds have turned against her?

[Mentalist]

we'll have to wait till RotCG for that..
The prevailing opinion is that precisely because tBH makes her look like such a dumb bitch, we're all in for a big surprise...

[D'rek]

Well mortal armies aren't of particularly large signifigance in the war against the CG. She shaped the creation of the Bonehunters, then set them loose from the Empire's constraints. I'd say she's setting up her own 'assassination' at the hands of Korbolo and Mallick, whereupon she'll ascend and either help in the fight with the CG or go apeshit against her 'murderers'.
It's almost too poetic/ironic for us to conceive of anything else happening.

[Kimloc]

This is a great series. I've read a lot of series and this one should get consideration as the best ever.

Even though I'm admittedly new here and just finished all the books, plus NoK, I have to go against the prevailing opinion. Here's why:

1) Sometimes people are just what they appear to be. Laseen is a blind and stupid woman and a complete Shadowthrone wannabe. Let's look at the facts of her "accomplished" history.

2) As WJ points out in the GOTM prologue, Surly was nothing more than a "serving wench in the Old QUarter" when Kellanved found her. I propose he made her part of his entourage because he read her like a book and knew she could be manipulated like a child. I'll come back to this.

3) She apparently failed to consider the Imass would not serve her or hang out like they did for the Emperor. GOTM, p 319--Lorn comments " the Empress was left without her most powerful army and no knowledge of when it would return" Tool responds, "Return was not guaranteed." All Lorn can say is "I see"

4) She let Coltaine die or, at the very least, made zero effort to prevent his demise--she could have sent Tay and 100 or so claws to Aren to force Pormqual to ride out and help. Or replace or execute him if he refused. The point is, she did NOTHING.

5) She lost the Claw, whether to Mallick Rel or Apsalar's dance or both is debatable but nevertheless the one thing she had created is now decimated.

6) Instead of simply executing Korbolo and Mallick, she was actually moronic enough to listen to them and let Rel have access to the Claw. That's stupidity on a universal scale.

7) She apparently failed to wipe out ANY of the Old Guard and every time she tries and fails, she makes matters worse for herself.

Maybe SE can write an alternate or reshaped Malazan history beginning with the GOTM prologue--only Fiddler wipes Surly out with a cusser, prolly taking himself WJ and Paran with her.

[Warqueen]

I get the sneaky feeling that nothing she has done has been her own idea....:heyhey: and mortal armies are needed to fight the mortals the CG uses to do his dirty work...Pannion Domin(sp?) anyone...I don't think Laseen is so all seeing she knows just where they need to be and when they need to be there...has anyone really seen her in awhile?...maybe the surly that went in is not the same surly that became Laseen....:eek:

[Kimloc]

I've got it! Laseen is the incompetent commander from Aliens, the one who can't do anything right. His entire command is dying, Ripley's screaming "Do something" and he has this Laseen like answer "Uh, i want you to lay down, uh, a supressing fire, uh, Apone..troops, what's going on, uh." That guy took a blow to the head and went down for a good chunk of the movie. As for Laseen, she's a great candidate for Mappo's club.

[Warqueen]

you don't build an empire and keep it by being that stupid....has any of the groungd :heyhey: the army won for her been lost?...has the empire started to shrink because the sharks smell blood in the water and know she can't hang on to it?....I've seen nothing like that...she just seems to be rolling along gaining ground...slick with blood but still prime property...:heyhey:

[Mentalist]

heh.t eh unbelievers will see.. The question to ask ourselves is "where has Topper gone to?"

[Kimloc]

I forgot about him--he was last heard from at the end of DG, right? Are there any theories about where he is?

[Skywalker]

There's a few threads out there about Topper:

http://malazanworld.com/forums/showthread....ighlight=topper
http://malazanworld.com/forums/showthread....ighlight=topper

Lots of speculation

[Illuyankas]

About your point 3, Kimloc, he answers 'Return is not guaranteed' because he doesn't know if the Logros would survive against the Jaghut they marched to defeat, the same one Karsa freed in HoC and 'sheboinked', to put it dirtily.

As for Laseen, she's either playing one ridiculously deep game or she's a raving incompetent.

[Kimloc]

Thanks for clearing that up, Ily.

A misc question---is Silverfox considered an ascendant? I don't recall her listed as one but she does house Nightchill's soul--an elder goddess, correct?

[Dancer+]

The definition of what Silverfox is is a difficult one. She has an Elder Goddess inside of her for a start, in addition to being the first T'lan Bonecaster for 300,000 years. Those two things give her at least ascendant capabilities, the difficulty is; we don't know how much Nightchill can tap into the Elder Goddess powers through the mortal vessel of Silverfox.

[D'rek]

I must defend my opinion!

Kimloc;273733 said:

2) As WJ points out in the GOTM prologue, Surly was nothing more than a "serving wench in the Old QUarter" when Kellanved found her. I propose he made her part of his entourage because he read her like a book and knew she could be manipulated like a child. I'll come back to this.

Surly was of the royal Napan line. She later became an accomplished assassin and is mentioned at a few points in the series to have taught certain things to the Emperor, instead of the usual other-way-around.

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3) She apparently failed to consider the Imass would not serve her or hang out like they did for the Emperor. GOTM, p 319--Lorn comments " the Empress was left without her most powerful army and no knowledge of when it would return" Tool responds, "Return was not guaranteed." All Lorn can say is "I see"

Kellanved never told anyone where the First Throne was, and Surly would've had to go on a half-a-decade quest to find it just like Kel did if she wanted the T'lan Imass

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4) She let Coltaine die or, at the very least, made zero effort to prevent his demise--she could have sent Tay and 100 or so claws to Aren to force Pormqual to ride out and help. Or replace or execute him if he refused. The point is, she did NOTHING.

it's all part of her plan

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5) She lost the Claw, whether to Mallick Rel or Apsalar's dance or both is debatable but nevertheless the one thing she had created is now decimated.

Letting Rel take control of the Claw was all part of the plan. Now that that component of her plan is complete, there was no need to leave a 400-strong army of assassin-mages in the hands of Rel.

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6) Instead of simply executing Korbolo and Mallick, she was actually moronic enough to listen to them and let Rel have access to the Claw. That's stupidity on a universal scale.

All part of the plan

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7) She apparently failed to wipe out ANY of the Old Guard and every time she tries and fails, she makes matters worse for herself.

The 'Old Guard' includes not just the Imperial High Fists, but all the old Commanders, second-in-commands and Adjutants, such as Gesler and Stormy, as well as members of special auxiliaries, like the elite mage cadres and healer cadres.
There are now two left - Admiral Nok and High Mage Tayschrenn. That's pretty freaking good by my books.

[Mentalist]

well, there ARE more... the Crusts for instance... + whomever we'll see in RotCG... but seriously, for the most part I agree with A'karonys, she's apperaing weak to make her enemies show themselves.
Actually, scratch part of that. I'm willing to believe that she underestimated Rel and it cost her 7C, coltaine and the 10k of Aren's troops. but she's also human and based on Tay's advice, she eliminated or scared away the best + brightest of those who'd be able to assist her...

[Venerus]

Regarding the old guard -- I think we get some insight about Laseen's actions by watching Tavore. I usually think of Laseen:Old Guard as Tavore:Felisin.

Laseen can't be seen to be coddling the Old Guard (not if she wants to 'get away' with murdering ST and Dancer) and by that time, they've earned their leave. But she doesn't want to kill them, necessarily -- she wants to appear to have killed them. I mean, she knew them PERSONALLY, there's no WAY she thinks Cartheron and Urko drowned... she would know as well as any of the other Old Guard, as I think Kulp mentions, that "Urko could have swum through a hurricane...drunk." And yet, she doesn't follow up on their "deaths"...? Not a chance. It's intentional.

I think of that the way Tavore couldn't be seen acting like nobility/playing favorites with Felisin, since that would undermine her entire position, but at the same time, she acted to... try to protect her. No, it wasn't perfect, but dancing around public opinion and the expectations of the empress kind of makes it difficult to strategize.

My 2 cents, anyway.

[Kimloc]

Royal Napan line--is there a quote stating that?

As far as "all part of her plan" maybe, but I call that a really asinine plan. Sounds like one of those boxers who make a ton of money, then let managers and leeches steal it from him, then comment "Well, I'm broke but at least I know who my friends are."

[Kimloc]

Dancer;274088 said:

The definition of what Silverfox is is a difficult one. She has an Elder Goddess inside of her for a start, in addition to being the first T'lan Bonecaster for 300,000 years. Those two things give her at least ascendant capabilities, the difficulty is; we don't know how much Nightchill can tap into the Elder Goddess powers through the mortal vessel of Silverfox.

So, at the end of MOI, she's going to Assail. Does anyone know if any of the remaining three books will cover that or is that an ICE novel?

[Dancer+]

That is an ICE novel. It's been safely confirmed by SE/ICE that Assail will not be dealt with in the main sequence (much to a few people's disappointment).

[Kimloc]

Yeah, that's a little unfortunate but if they could just interleave their releases we could get a book from one of them every 6-7 months--that would be incredible.

Hmm, I've been looking but haven't seen the titles of the rest of ICE's books like I have SE's. Does anyone know what the remaining three after RoTCG?