[Macros]

TT, I think the biggest problem with those thugs is a complete lack of disipline, their parents let them run riot. While I know some children are abused, and its a terrible thing, paretns who smack their kids should not be singled out for it (Its illegal in scotland or soemthign equally ridiculous) I was smacked many a time, I got the wooden spoon and the wicker cane on occsasion if i was disrespectful. (being disrespectful covers more than bad manners, breaking house rule etc is disrespecting your parents authority)
These thugs need to learn acting like a dick and giving bad manners is a one way ticket to getting knocked the fuck out.
My uncle and auntie are part of the group of people who think even shouting at their kids will damage them. I'm not permitted to babysit the little shits anymore. They're only 5, 7 and 8 but I told them it was bed time and the told me to fuck off, so I knocked them the fuck out. Kidding, I put them over my knee and they were sleeping on their face that night, they give my other cousins bad manners but never me anymore.

[Optimus Prime]

Obdigore;289141 said:

Sorry, Military Style School.

I don't really want to go into it, but it is more you child leaves monday morning and returns friday afternoon. They spend the rest of this time on the school grounds, learning, exercising, and getting along with other people of the same age. Punishment (no physical violence) can be metted out by the school, such as running/exercise and or extra work on a student by student basis.

The first year would teach 10-12 trade 'clusters' (Such as mechanical repair, fabrication, business...) and then your second year, you would specialize in 3 that interest you.

It would not be a military school per say, but it would follow more military schoolish guidelines, and allow structure and function for those teenager's lives, which is a lot better than the current school system does (at least in my area).

Man that is as far from what I'd want as possible....you're setting the stage for a military state with no freedoms.....too much structure leaves no room for creativity man....that's a dangerous idea there...

*runs away*

[Aptorian]

Obdigore;289141 said:

Sorry, Military Style School.

I don't really want to go into it, but it is more you child leaves monday morning and returns friday afternoon. They spend the rest of this time on the school grounds, learning, exercising, and getting along with other people of the same age. Punishment (no physical violence) can be metted out by the school, such as running/exercise and or extra work on a student by student basis.

The first year would teach 10-12 trade 'clusters' (Such as mechanical repair, fabrication, business...) and then your second year, you would specialize in 3 that interest you.

It would not be a military school per say, but it would follow more military schoolish guidelines, and allow structure and function for those teenager's lives, which is a lot better than the current school system does (at least in my area).

Personally I like that idea but I'm 26 not 6, 10 or 15 years old. I think you'd have some serious issues on your hands there.

[Macros]

Can't say I agree with the military school idea, but one thing I am DEFINATELY in favour of is the return of the cane to the class room.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Public schools with faggots and cane-happy teachers. It's what we built our empire with, and we can do it again dammit!

[cerveza_fiesta]

I always believe in the value of education and enlightenment. Killing a prisonner for having killed another just seems like a give-up easy way out. I doubt anybody will argue that the majority of thugs that regularly perpetrate violent crimes are folks that are literally too stupid to figure out any other way to deal with their problems. Why are they so unintelligent? It probably stems from a lack of discipline from parents, lack of proper motivators, influence of other criminally minded peers and a whole crapload of other things.

Take the stupid murdering thug and put him/her in a situation where he is cut off from the outside influences, like a solitary confinement situation, and given the motivation of early parole in exchange for learning. Put a very high standard on it, like a passing rate of 90% or something. Tell the thug he must obtain a college level education and successfully pass benchmark tests at that level in order to gain prison privileges and perhaps even be eligible for parole. Educate them in the criminal code and what they can and can't do. Provide reasoning for the rules. Basically, teach the person to be a logical and thoughtful human. I'm sure parole examiners would feel much better putting somebody who has legitimately learned and grown back on the streets. It's got to be better than releasing a falsely penitent thug who's learned nothing other than prison survival tactics.

I can't guarantee that it would work, but most people, when presented with options that a good education provides, would think twice before perpetrating a crime again, or at least think of a better way to deal with the problem. If we're going to act like an enlightened society, we can't abandon the stragglers. In my situation above, we wouldn't be forcing anybody to do anything, just providing an option and strong incentive for people who wanted to genuinely put in the effort.

[Obdigore]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/15/rape.e...tion/index.html

Thoughts?

[cerveza_fiesta]

Obdigore;289737 said:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/15/rape.e...tion/index.html

Thoughts?

-1- Given the modern rarity of rapist executions, this big fella is going to be in appeals for another decade no doubt

-2- Benitez makes a pretty good point about rapists simply murdering their victims to eliminate the witness when faced with a potential death penalty for the crime.

[Obdigore]

cerveza_fiesta;289758 said:

-1- Given the modern rarity of rapist executions, this big fella is going to be in appeals for another decade no doubt

-2- Benitez makes a pretty good point about rapists simply murdering their victims to eliminate the witness when faced with a potential death penalty for the crime.

1) Probably, especially when playing the race card.

2) I do agree with that, but in this case, since the only witness is the very young victim, who probably can not be considered a 'great' witness, and the police were after other people first, there can't be a whole lot of evidence, and I don't think he should be killed, even if found guilty.

[Macros]

He raped a small girl, his step daughter, string him up.

[fan_83]

my idea of punishment is not the death sentence.. i would prefer them to work for it

bring back the 18th century dungeons as prisons... and you have to work to get food and better accomodation..

do no work.. stick you in a damp wet mouldy dungeon and only feed you gruel..

do some work.. you get some sort of credit and you get better food and accoo

do lots of work.. you get tv, papers and books

that should be motivation

and also make it mandatory for 12-15 year old kids to visit the dank wet and mouldy dungeon once a year to remind them the price of crime

that should be a good deterrant

[cerveza_fiesta]

@fan

Kinda what I was getting at, but with labor instead of education as motivation. Maybe a combo of our methods. There's got to be something to motivate or else everybody will just do the bare minimum.

My GF's dad works at a prison. From what he said anyway, a very hefty portion of the inmates are otherwise normal people that just made one big mistake (Drunken vehicular manslaughter, crimes of passion types) and now are spending 25+ years in jail. They feel true remorse and would do anything to make more of themselves and try to fix the situation for the victims of the crime and for themselves. For people like that, an incentive program would work very well I think. Even if you were only reaching 1/4 of the inmates with it, it would lessen the strain on the prison system to set them free early with a much better set of options than they would normally have upon release.

Not saying people wouldn't try to abuse the system or cheat it, but in principle, I think it would be a really good solution.

[JoJo]

My objection to the death penalty is that, considering how many people are being released from prison because DNA evidence, the chances of executing someone who's innocent are fairly high.

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." -Sir William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England

[Astra]

paladin;269657 said:

I believe in capital punishment. Some things are unforgiveable in life(thus your pennance is death) and some people who commit heinous crimes are unable to be rehabilitated at all

Absolutely agree.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

With regards to those that cannot be rehabilitated (and you wont find me arguing that there aren't any), I still think the death sentence is unjustified. It just makes the state seem irrational and hypocritical, and I refuse to condone the right of the state to take anyone's life, no matter what they've done. Surely it's just as effective to incarcerate for life (actual life, not the 20 years or whatever they say it is)?

The general comeback to this suggestion I find is either that A) prison isn't punishment enough- something I think you'll agree has been stated many times and the vast majority will concur that prison is just too easy,but surely that's a problem with the prison system that needs to be addressed, not an issue with whether the death penalty should be an option?

Or, the other comeback I come across generally is - if someone has taken the life of your relative or whatever they don't deserve the right to see the sun rise everyday, or to enjoy small things like the pleasure of food or whatever. But for me, that boils down to going over A) again. Put it this way, if prison was an absolute living hell, tortuous, painful, every moment making you plead for death, would people still call for the death penalty? I dont think they would, personally, except as a mercy.

[Astra]

Thelomen Toblerone;292659 said:

Surely it's just as effective to incarcerate for life (actual life, not the 20 years or whatever they say it is)?

Someone murdered another person.

Sentncing him for life would grant him a gift of life. The one that he has taken a liberty to take from another innocent person, let alone most likely destroying life of people who loved the murdered person. What good the murderer has done to deserve such a gift?

[Cold Iron]

@TT: Well I guess that rules out sending criminals to Australia

[Morgoth]

Cold Iron;292661 said:

@TT: Well I guess that rules out sending criminals to Australia

I think they'd rather opt for the death penalty than having to drink australian beer.

[drinksinbars]

Cold Iron;292661 said:

@TT: Well I guess that rules out sending criminals to Australia

damn and there go my summer holiday plans:(

[drinksinbars]

Thelomen Toblerone;292659 said:

With regards to those that cannot be rehabilitated (and you wont find me arguing that there aren't any), I still think the death sentence is unjustified. It just makes the state seem irrational and hypocritical, and I refuse to condone the right of the state to take anyone's life, no matter what they've done. Surely it's just as effective to incarcerate for life (actual life, not the 20 years or whatever they say it is)?

The general comeback to this suggestion I find is either that A) prison isn't punishment enough- something I think you'll agree has been stated many times and the vast majority will concur that prison is just too easy,but surely that's a problem with the prison system that needs to be addressed, not an issue with whether the death penalty should be an option?

Or, the other comeback I come across generally is - if someone has taken the life of your relative or whatever they don't deserve the right to see the sun rise everyday, or to enjoy small things like the pleasure of food or whatever. But for me, that boils down to going over A) again. Put it this way, if prison was an absolute living hell, tortuous, painful, every moment making you plead for death, would people still call for the death penalty? I dont think they would, personally, except as a mercy.

i find the hypocrisy of the governments int he western world to be quite laughable evven without the death penalty. We send our armies to fight in the middle east where they kill an unaccountable number of civilians but people find the thought of executing murderers and rapists barbaric.

i was lsitening to the radio the other day and a convicted rapist from the south had crossed into northern ireland and raped a teenage boy. they were on the southern sex offenders list but were given no checks and left to roam free. In the north they commited a heinous crime and were sentenced to two years. Given that they pleaded guilty they were given parole after one year. After time served and the length of time it took the case to go to trial they ended up in prison after sentencing for four months and were then freed.

is it any wonder that people have vbecome disillusioned with the criminal justice system. imagine the impact ont hat young mans life after the rape, and then upon learning that his rapist was going to be freed only four months after being sentenced. the boys mother was ont he radio complaining not only at the leniency shown to the rapist but to the fact that he was released and then a few weeks later she was informed of the release.

Personally - i dont believe in human rights, it seems a curiously obnoxious way of hiding behind this notion of people deserving something for nothing. In my mind a person should earn all they recieve. When you so blatantly destroy another persons life, why should society feel obliged to rehabilitate you, or clothe and feed you for years upon years?

in closing - dont ever elect me to be public official, it would be very unpleasant for all involved.