[Thelomen Toblerone]

I agree that governments are highly hypocritical, and that's why I cant countenance them becomeing even more so with the death penalty. The fact that we went to Iraq with so much public outcry and such tiny support levels just shows how much the government give a shit about democracy or the people in between election days. Like Rousseau, I think that people in liberal democracies only really have any level of control over their state and government is the day of an election. However, for the time being at least, we have to work within the confines of the system we have and try to stop it getting worse.

The case with the boy is something I really feel the judicial syste just doesnt understand. Aside from the whole prison not punishing enough thing, these people are fucked up in the head. They are mentally ill in a way, and just making them sit in a cell for a few years will not stop them reoffending. Anyone committing a sex crime of that nature needs to be kept apart from the public for a very, very long time, possibly for life, or monitored ridiculously closely to prevent anything happening, IMO. That particular case is ludicrous for the short sentences received and the obvious lack of monitoring or sharing of information going on (I thought Eire was supposed to be working with the NI police now?), which the death penalty wouldnt have solved.

I mean, the guy was not given the maximum sentence in the first place. Thus, there's no way he would have been executed. Changing the punishment to allow for execution, which would have prevented this, is the same in outcome for this boy as if the penalty was changed to lifelong imprisonment- in both cases, no reoffendeing occurs.

[Macros]

You can re-use a rope, and a bullets a damn sight cheaper than 40 years of food, housing and clothing

[drinksinbars]

Thelomen Toblerone;292747 said:

I agree that governments are highly hypocritical, and that's why I cant countenance them becomeing even more so with the death penalty. The fact that we went to Iraq with so much public outcry and such tiny support levels just shows how much the government give a shit about democracy or the people in between election days. Like Rousseau, I think that people in liberal democracies only really have any level of control over their state and government is the day of an election. However, for the time being at least, we have to work within the confines of the system we have and try to stop it getting worse.

The case with the boy is something I really feel the judicial syste just doesnt understand. Aside from the whole prison not punishing enough thing, these people are fucked up in the head. They are mentally ill in a way, and just making them sit in a cell for a few years will not stop them reoffending. Anyone committing a sex crime of that nature needs to be kept apart from the public for a very, very long time, possibly for life, or monitored ridiculously closely to prevent anything happening, IMO. That particular case is ludicrous for the short sentences received and the obvious lack of monitoring or sharing of information going on (I thought Eire was supposed to be working with the NI police now?), which the death penalty wouldnt have solved.

I mean, the guy was not given the maximum sentence in the first place. Thus, there's no way he would have been executed. Changing the punishment to allow for execution, which would have prevented this, is the same in outcome for this boy as if the penalty was changed to lifelong imprisonment- in both cases, no reoffendeing occurs.

supposedly they are, but there only so many resources available and the border is wide open, any one can cross from ireland to northern ireland and criminals do tend to swicth countries readily. That was only an example though, the fact is society as a whole is becoming more lawless because our population is growing and while a larger working population should theoretically create a more stable society, we are instead facing a situation where the infratsructure for such a large soceity is not in place and the governemtn is having to change the law to suit the situation.

we cant afford to house as many criminals as exist and therefore the government employs kop out poilcies such as parole, half sentencing, reduced sentencing, house arrest, half way houses etc. Criminals constantly slip through the cracks. On top of this and most worrying of all is the human rights movement which seems to be used by slimy fucking lawyers to get criminals cushier sentencing and jails while the victims are treated with contempt and little care for their rights.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Macros;292753 said:

You can re-use a rope, and a bullets a damn sight cheaper than 40 years of food, housing and clothing

US statistics would tend to disagree with you there Im afraid. The death penalty is only more conomically viable in countries where suspects dont go through a thorough judicial process to concretely establish their guilt (as much as is possible, anyway), such as China. Plus since when could you re-use bullets?!

[drinksinbars]

i heard recently that there are 470 planned executions in china at the time of the olympics. hows that for progress.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Well, it's nice to have a schedule. It's those pesky non-planned ones they're gonna have to squeeze in that'll be the problem. Bloody Olympics, using up their stadiums. They could be used for necessary executions!

[Macros]

TT, I'll be judge jury and executioner, for a nominal fee, savings everwhere and I clearly meant re-use the rope and bulets are dirt cheap, but not re0usabel

[Thelomen Toblerone]

As long as you promise to wear one of those curly grey wigs for the judge bit. And a cape.

[Macros]

I'll even throw in the underwear outside my trousers and big cheesy boots

[The Tyrant Lizard]

For those people who think being excecuted isn't as bad a punishment as being left in jail for the rest of your life, I may agree. In such a case do away with lethal injections, ropes, axes, and bullets, and just torture them to death over the course of two or three weeks.

Barbaric? Yes... but if someone killed anyone in my family I'd happily watch the footage over chirstmas dinner.

[stone monkey]

How about if ten years down the line you find out they'd tortured to death the wrong guy? How would you feel then?

[Cause]

470 out of 1,300,000,000 people. Its not so bad when you put it in context. 20% of the world should have 20% of the executions.

[Nequam]

Obdigore;289141 said:

Sorry, Military Style School.

I don't really want to go into it, but it is more you child leaves monday morning and returns friday afternoon. They spend the rest of this time on the school grounds, learning, exercising, and getting along with other people of the same age. Punishment (no physical violence) can be metted out by the school, such as running/exercise and or extra work on a student by student basis.

The first year would teach 10-12 trade 'clusters' (Such as mechanical repair, fabrication, business...) and then your second year, you would specialize in 3 that interest you.

It would not be a military school per say, but it would follow more military schoolish guidelines, and allow structure and function for those teenager's lives, which is a lot better than the current school system does (at least in my area).

No, no, no, no, no, no ,no na-no-no NO!!!!!! I would rebel my ass -ff if anything at like that was mandatory across the counrty. That would drive me insane and (not that I'm inherently violent) I think I would end up attacking people to get out. I know our schools aren't doming all that well right now but that is the most horrify idea I've heard (okay not even close to the most horrifying, but I don't like it.)

Quote

For those people who think being excecuted isn't as bad a punishment as being left in jail for the rest of your life, I may agree. In such a case do away with lethal injections, ropes, axes, and bullets, and just torture them to death over the course of two or three weeks.

Barbaric? Yes... but if someone killed anyone in my family I'd happily watch the footage over chirstmas dinner.

I could never ever condone torture, and I'm fairly sure that most of the world wouldn't like that idea either. It doesn't matter if they killed someone, they don't deserve to be tortured. That is, in my perspective, an evil thing. There aren't many things in the world I would actually consider evil.

[Cause]

Thelomen Toblerone;293177 said:

US statistics would tend to disagree with you there Im afraid. The death penalty is only more conomically viable in countries where suspects dont go through a thorough judicial process to concretely establish their guilt (as much as is possible, anyway), such as China. Plus since when could you re-use bullets?!

You get a trial. Your sentanced to death. You get an appeal at a higher court. If your found guilty twice and sentanced to death again, they kill you within the month. It hardly seems like they dont have a chance.

The american method of having twenty trials over ten years is just absurd. Yes I know its an exageration but not by much from what I understand.

[stone monkey]

Can on of the you Death Penalty supporters just point out to me what your take on executing innocent people actually is? Given that the choices boil down to either regrettable accident or State sponsored murder; can you then inform me of how you're going to explain to anyone that a whole bunch of people ganging up to kill their father (or mother, or brother, or sister, or son, or daughter, or friend, or lover, or whoever) for no good reason was "Just one of those unfortunate things that's got to happen to someone"?

[Obdigore]

stone monkey;313065 said:

Can on of the you Death Penalty supporters just point out to me what your take on executing innocent people actually is? Given that the choices boil down to either regrettable accident or State sponsored murder; can you then inform me of how you're going to explain to anyone that a whole bunch of people ganging up to kill their father (or mother, or brother, or sister, or son, or daughter, or friend, or lover, or whoever) for no good reason was "Just one of those unfortunate things that's got to happen to someone"?

Justice is an approximation of fairness, and used to keep people in line. It is hardly ever just. I am for putting people to death when they either A) are found guilty of numerous murders/rapes, or Have more than one eyewitness and dna evidence against them, and found guilty of a single murder/rape.

Tell me, Stone Monkey, how do you explain to the family when the mass murderer breaks out of jail and kills some family attempting to sleep in their home? Do you say it is "Just one of those unfortunate things that's got to happen to someone"?

[paladin]

stone monkey;313065 said:

Can on of the you Death Penalty supporters just point out to me what your take on executing innocent people actually is? Given that the choices boil down to either regrettable accident or State sponsored murder; can you then inform me of how you're going to explain to anyone that a whole bunch of people ganging up to kill their father (or mother, or brother, or sister, or son, or daughter, or friend, or lover, or whoever) for no good reason was "Just one of those unfortunate things that's got to happen to someone"?

it sucks. thats about it. thats why we have 20 years of appeals trials and the death penalty isnt really applied anymore without solid eyewitness testimony, DNA proof, or some type of video/audio evidence.

[Shinrei]

The death penalty is a hollow revenge that I have trouble believing would do anything for the grieving process. As it stands in the States, its more expensive to execute someone than jail them for life. Its unproven as a crime deterrent. Some innocents do get executed. (They just released a guy on death row in colorado who was proven innocent by evidence that emerged). From those standpoints, especially the last one, it makes no sense to me.

[paladin]

Shinrei no Shintai;313164 said:

Some innocents do get executed. (They just released a guy on death row in colorado who was proven innocent by evidence that emerged).

so how does the process we have in place working show that innocents are currently being executed? the reason we have a lengthly appeals process is to avoid innocents being executed and it looks like its working according to that statement.

[stone monkey]

Obdigore;313079 said:

Tell me, Stone Monkey, how do you explain to the family when the mass murderer breaks out of jail and kills some family attempting to sleep in their home? Do you say it is "Just one of those unfortunate things that's got to happen to someone"?

Easy. This is how we were attempting to keep them away from society. Here is how it went wrong. We fucked up.

Now answer my question.

The appeal to "Justice isn't fair so we killed your dad" makes little sense.