[drinksinbars]

Morgoth;270059 said:

A legal system can never be perfect. There will always be people who are convicted for something they didn't do. Where the demand for evidence is at its strictest -as it would be with the death penalty- the chance of this happening is much less. However, there will always be error. The longer you practice capital punishment, the greater the chance of executing an innocent becomes. Eventually, it will happen, no matter what. It's pretty basic probability.

Secondly, in the US, it costs more to execute a criminal than it costs to imprisson them for life. Why? Because they work so hard to avoid killing someone innocent. The legal costs are massive.

Thirdly, there is no proven deterent effect of capital punishment. The kind of crime that is awarded with death tend to be the kind where no thought of consequences get even the tiniest say.

Fourthly, how is the death penalty anything but revenge? A system of justice that honours revenge for the sake of revenge is in my opinion barbaric.

And finally: I do not believe the state should have a legal right to sentence people to death. It opens for abuse, it opens for error, it opens for mistakes of the gravest kind.

i agree, we should simply hire bounty hunters and have them killed before trail - saves us taxpayers a fortune and doesnt involve a system of legalised murder in the public eye. Good point there morgo;)

seriously though. I do not think that someone who takes a life should have any rights within the system, also there are plenty of serious offenders being released back into society due to overcrowding and red tape buearocracy designed to appeal to a middle class voting system thta wants to avoid feeling barbaric by inflicting true punishment.

Rehab is all fair and well, but the focus of jail / hard labour /death, should be to punish someone for their crime. Once a fitting punishment has been complete - if they are still aliv and have readjusted in some way - rehab should be offered.

the time just dont fit the crime anymore.

[paladin]

Morgoth;270059 said:

Fourthly, how is the death penalty anything but revenge? A system of justice that honours revenge for the sake of revenge is in my opinion barbaric.

what is punishment? capital crimes(premeditated murder and treason basically) come with capital consequences. its not revenge, its fair punishment for the crime committed. dont do the crime if you cant do the time.

[Optimus Prime]

Morgoth, couldn't agree more.

@Apt, you're not scared of death? Ever been close? I mean really close? I have. It's terrifying.

If you guys are all about the punishment, then life in prison makes way more sense. Killing some guy and giving him the easy way out isn't anything IMO.

There's no direct proof the Death Penalty cuts down on repeat offenses, I've seen evidence that it does, and evidence it doesn't.

I'd rather have a mass murderer sit in a cold dark cell for years dwelling on how he wasted his life than pull a lever and fry him, nobody wins in that situation. He never gets a chance to suffer the consequences of his action and (possibly) rehabilitate.

[Lost Marine]

Xander;270257 said:

There's no direct proof the Death Penalty cuts down on repeat offenses, I've seen evidence that it does, and evidence it doesn't.

.

Pretty sure that if you execute someone they're not going to do it again. I was talking about some kind of example, I was talking more from a pragmatic, this guys dead he can't hurt anyone else kind of view.

[ch'arlz]

Lost Marine;270372 said:

Pretty sure that if you execute someone they're not going to do it again. I was talking about some kind of example, I was talking more from a pragmatic, this guys dead he can't hurt anyone else kind of view.

except there's a disturbingly large number of people on death row who are being exonerated by indisputable DNA evidence and evidence of judicial misconduct. Texas and Virginia are prime examples. It's the latest but 'legitimate' form of lynching.

[Nequam]

I have never been against the death penalty, but I sure hope that whoever gets it does deserve it.


...Though should we kill rapists? Shouldn't we just rape them back? (I can't remember who but some comedian said that)

[Nequam]

Xander;270257 said:

I'd rather have a mass murderer sit in a cold dark cell for years dwelling on how he wasted his life than pull a lever and fry him, nobody wins in that situation. He never gets a chance to suffer the consequences of his action and (possibly) rehabilitate.

The problem with that is in todays prison life gangs rule. If someone is sentanced to life they are basically guaranteed to join a gang. Through these gangs many, many more lifes are lost and drug trafficing is increased. It is just unbelievable how many connections these prisoners have. They can get someone killed or kill someone if they want (especially if they're already in for a lifesentance), it doesn't matter if they are in prison or out. It also puts too much strain on the government. We (I'm thinking about the U.S.) just don't have the fundings or resources to keep so many people in jail. It is crushing us. Especially now with our economy spiralling down, there are more people in prison now than ever. If anything we should at least kill those who are on death row as soon as we can instead of wasting money on them for 10-15 more years.
The more people in prison the more fights there will be, killing those who need not to be killed, like gaurds and other inmates. There are just so many problems with our prison system the last thing we should be doing right now is keeping more people in there for a longer amount of time.

Although you have some good logic in your opinion. I just don't think it would be practical.

EDIT: oh and sorry for the double post, I should have read everything before posting the first time.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Please we are in the 21st century! Is a barbarian act to kill someone no matter what they do: we become just like them.And by the way I think is much more effective to free someone for ever of his liberty than kill him. Come on guys an Italian writer called Cesare Beccaria understood this and he was from the 18th century!

_______________________

Quote

You cant be serious!
Death is always serious

Paran and Hood

Quote

This rain will make the sea rise, yes?

Mallick Rel to Pearl

[Obdigore]

BauchelaintheEvil;288961 said:

Please we are in the 21st century! Is a barbarian act to kill someone no matter what they do: we become just like them.And by the way I think is much more effective to free someone for ever of his liberty than kill him. Come on guys an Italian writer called Cesare Beccaria understood this and he was from the 18th century!

And I think that removing that person, when the proof is 'irrefutable', is the way to go. And none of this painless stuff either. Frankly, society needs MORE barbarism in it, compared to 'everyone is happy and shiny and if you do something wrong you get a slap on the wrist.' I was incarcerated for a time, it was a like a all-male college dorm, and you couldn't leave.

That is really not how prison/jail should be, and that is not what I want my tax dollars funding. If you are caught on tape/confess/seen by numerous witnesses/DNA proof (that is what I mean by irrefutable proof), then they should be removed from life. None of this pansy ass painless injection bullshit either. Bring back Gladiators. Bring back Hanging. WHY should the 'rights' of these people be respected when they didn't respect the rights of their victims.

Anyone who has premeditated and murdered numerous people needs to be killed themselves. A one time thing in a fit of rage or something like a car crash (manslaughter) is another story...

[Optimus Prime]

I'd rather use these murderers and others on Death Row and put them to work. We're just wasting any opportunity to use their labor, rehabilitate them, and oh yeah....

PUNISH THEM. Killing them really isn't punishing someone who was going to spend his life in jail, is it?

Oh and @whoever said that there are tons of guys on Death Row without DNA evidence, you're damn right. It's complete bullshit.....

[Obdigore]

_everyone_ in jail/prison should work. Dig Ditches, work in a quarry, I don't care. A debt to society isn't paid by sitting around wasting tax payer money.

[Optimus Prime]

That's what I'm saying. Prison should be about punishment and REHABILITATION.

[Obdigore]

Xander;289046 said:

That's what I'm saying. Prison should be about punishment and REHABILITATION.

But what about those that cannot be REHABILITATED? Serial Murderers? Serial Rapists?

Most people think that working those types to death would be too cruel, and I agree. If it is changed so that the work they do, digging ditches, stamping license plates, whatever, saves the government the cost of feeding/housing them, then life in prison, while working, fine.

PS/Edit - the US of A would never do this. Many peace and love types would view it as the next slavery and condone it. Then you would get MAWP (Mothers Against Working Prisoners) and people would be horrified of forcing those that took away others rights to loose those same rights themselves. Oh god no!

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I agree prisoners should have to work, to at least pay for their own food and accomodation.

But the death penalty is just senseless. How can you justify saying murder is wrong and then sanction it as an official punishment? Plus there's the whole innocence issue, and also the fact that studies have shown it's effect as a deterrent to be minimal.

I also read in a Bill Bryson book that it's cheaper to incaracerate someone for life in the US than to execute them, as the costs of all the various appeal trials to ensure their guilt are huge.

The problem is that prison isn't doing either of the things it supposed to- it's nowhere near as punishing as it should be if it wants to serve as a deterrent, and inmates (who are disproportionately illiterate and unskilled, thus having no alternative to a life of crime) are rarely given the educational and social support they desperately need if they are to be re-integrated into society and not reoffend.

[Macros]

I'm all for capital punishment. Britain at the minute is a joke. ASBO's? What the fuck kind of a deterant is that to those yobs that roam every damned cities streets? A good solid beating, let the people who suffer wield the cat o' nine and tear strips off the little shit's backs.
Steal something? You lose a finger, steal again, another. Third time the whole damned hand. Murderers should be hung, I mean pre-meditated murder for pre-meditated murder, an eye for an eye. Prison should be a punishment. No TV, no knowledge of the outside world, no decent food. Bread and water. A vitamin tablet as well I suppose to keep the namby pamby civil rights twats happy. Forced to work to pay for their incarceration, in the process learning skills that can be transfered to a productive life post jail.
Those bullshit cases where the criminal sues the victim should be thrown out of court so fast the lawyers can't even open his mouth to start lieing.
When I come to power national service will be brought back in, 1 year for your country would put manners in a lot of those chavs that are ruining peoples lives, full metal jacket style

[Obdigore]

US Needs a manditory 'Millitary School' style schooling from 16-18, to graduate high school. We also need high school courses brought up to date and teach usefull things.

In fact, I think the US School system should change to yearround... well this is for another thread.

Anyway, damn skippy Macros, damn skippy, from the other side of the pond.

There was a case up here about A criminal on a roof, trying to break in, slipped and fell onto the sidewalk, breaking his spine. He is now paralized from just below his ribcage down, he sued and won damages from the people's house that he was trying to break into. What the hell is that?

[Optimus Prime]

Obdigore;289126 said:

US Needs a manditory 'Millitary School' style schooling from 16-18, to graduate high school. We also need high school courses brought up to date and teach usefull things.

In fact, I think the US School system should change to yearround... well this is for another thread.

Anyway, damn skippy Macros, damn skippy, from the other side of the pond.

There was a case up here about A criminal on a roof, trying to break in, slipped and fell onto the sidewalk, breaking his spine. He is now paralized from just below his ribcage down, he sued and won damages from the people's house that he was trying to break into. What the hell is that?

I don't want to offend you Obdi, but that idea is ridiculous and would convince me to leave the US if I was a teenage kid. Military school??!?!!? Mandatory?!?!

Hitler thought that was a good idea as well, I believe....

[Macros]

Thats the kind of shit I'm talking about, there was a case here (btw what the hell does damn skippy mean????) where some tool broke into an ELDERY COUPLES house, fell down the stairs and managed to claim something stupid like ten grand of THEM, went to prison for a year, and then came out laughing.
WHAT THE SHIT?? what kind of a judge could in good concience make that ruling? its total bullshit.
There was one case though, eh, last year or the year before I think, when a thug had won £20,000 on a scratch card and was convicted of robbing an elderly couple. The thug was acting the candyman in the court and the judge ordered that he give his winnings to the couple. Thats the kind of man I want as chief justice, not some asshole who would rather reward the crims.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, Macros.

I dont really agree with national service, I mean teaching hordes of violent chavs more productive ways with which to hurt and kill others cant be a good thing, not to mention that it inherently requires an increase in the numbers of firearms in the country, some of which are bound to be misappropriated.

The criminal suing thing, spot on- it's absolutely ridiculous that a burgular can sue you for hurting themselves while they rob you blind, the person who suggests that deserves to be slapped silly.

[Obdigore]

Xander;289133 said:

I don't want to offend you Obdi, but that idea is ridiculous and would convince me to leave the US if I was a teenage kid. Military school??!?!!? Mandatory?!?!

Hitler thought that was a good idea as well, I believe....

Sorry, Military Style School.

I don't really want to go into it, but it is more you child leaves monday morning and returns friday afternoon. They spend the rest of this time on the school grounds, learning, exercising, and getting along with other people of the same age. Punishment (no physical violence) can be metted out by the school, such as running/exercise and or extra work on a student by student basis.

The first year would teach 10-12 trade 'clusters' (Such as mechanical repair, fabrication, business...) and then your second year, you would specialize in 3 that interest you.

It would not be a military school per say, but it would follow more military schoolish guidelines, and allow structure and function for those teenager's lives, which is a lot better than the current school system does (at least in my area).