[Obdigore]

Cause;313317 said:

Raymond, yes people still commit capital crimes. The question is do less people commit them than would otherwise because of the detterant. I dont think it can be determined.

The world is fulled with people who would steal, rape etc if their were not some people telling them they could not. Does not mean it wont happen.

obdigore you think a man should be killed for two counts of statutory rape? A 21 year old having sex with a 17 old deserves to die?

Ahh thats the thing. I don't personally describe that as statuatory rape. I was speaking more about a 30 year old on an 11 year old or something. That is, in the US, still 'Statuatory Rape', and it needs to be changed. It is a 2 year difference if either person is under 18 where I live, so technically a 19 year old with a birthday in december could be charged with it if he/she had sex with a 17 year old with a birthday in january, before the younger person turned 18.

Edit for Cross-Post with RLY: Let those others have the Inn. We have the Discussion!

[Nequam]

Quote

6. The death penalty is in practice racist

Ummm, how?
I just don't quite understant what is racist about it. UNless you mean that people on the jury are often racist.

[Obdigore]

Nequam;313356 said:

Ummm, how?
I just don't quite understant what is racist about it. UNless you mean that people on the jury are often racist.

That is what he meant.

Black Men are more likely to get the death penalty than White Men, but as noted above, we could get rid of this by making the penalty for being convicted of 2+ counts of premeditated murder (First Degree) an automatic death penalty. Unless you are going to let someone walk away from a murder because of your racism, there is no way for the a racist to determine the punishment.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Obdigore;313358 said:

That is what he meant.

Black Men are more likely to get the death penalty than White Men, but as noted above, we could get rid of this by making the penalty for being convicted of 2+ counts of premeditated murder (First Degree) an automatic death penalty. Unless you are going to let someone walk away from a murder because of your racism, there is no way for the a racist to determine the punishment.

That's basically it. A higher percentage of blacks accused of murder get the death penalty than whites. And no, I don't have the study in front of me right now.

[Shinrei]

In terms of studies, I don't have them at my fingertips. If you ask me "why" I am against the death penalty, it comes down to this:

When I was a senior in high school I was part of a debate team for a civics class. I was chosen to be the debate team leader for the Pro-Death Penalty side. Ironically, we won the debate because the opposition were complete fools and didn't do their homework. However, through the research I did for that debate I read studies on it being a failure as a deterrent, saw the tax-payer money math showing its more expensive, and having read personal stories about convicts being exonerated or determined innocent after they were already dead, I came to feel that I could never support such a thing based on what I had found in my research.

Granted, that was a long time ago and I wasn't as savvy and was a lot more naive in trusting sources, but until I see studies that show its the other way around, I don't see a need to change my opinion.

[Macros]

if lawyers weren't such blood sucking leeches it wouldnt be more expensive to eradicate the stain on societies skin that is the murderer in question.
I disagree with all those studies on cost effectiveness because they're based on ridiculously inflated costs, if the defendant is getting state representation (not paying for their own) then the lawyers ridiculius fees are counted as a cost, why do the goverenment pay for this? everyone has a right to defence, let him defend himself if he can't pay for a vampire, sorry lawyer, or throw out some cost price dipshit, don't go throwing money round you like a sailor in port.
A bullet costs very little.

I did have a giggle at this little bit though:

rly said:

2. I don't think executing people is a mark of a civilized society in today's world. It makes us look like barbarians.

it should be noted when the barbarians took the notion they over ran every "civilisation" they encountered, clearly the way forward

[Grimjust Bearegular]

I wouldn't mind introducing death penalty here in Norway, where the prisons are so nice foreigners/immigrants/refugees come here and commit crimes just to go to jail, and why not? You get your own room, a proper bed, a tv, a desk, maybe a computer, a meal three times a day and you can get a Master's Degree if you want, without paying for it, like law-abiding citizens do. Because the Norwegian government believes in rehabilitation.
The Norwegian government doesn't want anyone to suffer, especially not criminals.

Longest amount of time you can possibly spend in jail? 21 years and that's it, and you would have to do something really, really horrible to get 21 years in Norway. Murder doesn't do it, multiple rapes doesn't do it, child molestation sure as hell doesn't do it (in Norway you can get more jailtime for forging ONE 100-kroner bill than for raping a child).

I say no more! Kill the bastards(or at least make them rot in jail for the rest of their lives). It's not murder when the government does it, it's not playing God and it's not that barbaric, not the way it's done nowadays anyways....

[Ace Hunter]

I don't know if execution is the best thing, but it's the only thing that looks useful...I doubt rehabilitation will work on a crazed serial killer lol

[anothevilbadguy]

I still cannot believe anybody is pro the death penalty. It truly is one of the most abhorrent beliefs to have. The comments concerning Norway are just incorrect, that is no the case (i.e forgery and child rape, respective penalties). Rehabilitation is the only reason to imprison a non-insane person, i.e to re-educate. As a criminal prosecution lawyer I would find it demoralizing to read some of your comments, however, as i live in London I am used to people shouting off right-wing theory, and try to protect them selves with weak liberal (i.e lassie-faire) arguments. Rehab, or insanity, is the only moral reason for detainment. Death penalty is just ridiculously 1984 big government, and this coming from a socialist ( i.e big government, high taxes, economies of scale public services).
Hope you get the point.

p.s. Slightly beside the point, but do people who are pro death penalty agree with SE's social commentary, or enjoy his books despite his 'left'- wing comments?

[Obdigore]

anothevilbadguy, on Jul 9 2008, 07:07 PM, said:

I still cannot believe anybody is pro the death penalty. It truly is one of the most abhorrent beliefs to have. The comments concerning Norway are just incorrect, that is no the case (i.e forgery and child rape, respective penalties). Rehabilitation is the only reason to imprison a non-insane person, i.e to re-educate. As a criminal prosecution lawyer I would find it demoralizing to read some of your comments, however, as i live in London I am used to people shouting off right-wing theory, and try to protect them selves with weak liberal (i.e lassie-faire) arguments. Rehab, or insanity, is the only moral reason for detainment. Death penalty is just ridiculously 1984 big government, and this coming from a socialist ( i.e big government, high taxes, economies of scale public services).
Hope you get the point.

p.s. Slightly beside the point, but do people who are pro death penalty agree with SE's social commentary, or enjoy his books despite his 'left'- wing comments?

I am going to respond to this, and bump this thread so we don't go off-topic in the child beat to death thread.

First, you claim it is an abhorrent belief, I claim it is needed in our society.
Secondly, sounds like you support government programming more than I ever would.
Third, You claim that rehab is the only 'moral' reason for detainment? What if I disagree? What if I think that making someone pay their debt to society is a moral, nay a Just, reason for detainment?
Fourth, you describe yourself as a socialist, and so I feel we have quite differing viewpoints, as you believe that everyone is a good person and anyone will be a productive member of society, if given the chance. I don't.

[HoosierDaddy]

"I still cannot believe that people is pro the death penalty. It truly is one of the most abhorrent beliefs to have."

The death penalty isn't a "belief." It is a socially enacted principle that is emblazoned in flashing, bright neon lights: "If you do this, you might be killed. We as a society have decided that the only appropriate reaction to certain acts is to make sure you can never do this again, with finality."

Abhorrent? Possibly. One of the most abhorrent beliefs? That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Do I disagree? Yes.

"Rehab, or insanity, is the only moral reason for detainment."

Your view on justice is so grossly simplistic that I can only stare in awe at every bit of gray this statement precludes.

Those are 2 reasons, there are others. Such as "punishment." You know, like you used to have to sit in the corner because you wouldn't share your toys, but only this time you stole someone's money from their bank account and you aren't a child so you get to sit in your prison cell for a few years.

[Mezla PigDog]

There is nothing quite like an internet discussion board or the tabloid news to make me wish that a nuclear holocaust or global warming would just hurry up and wipe the human race off the face of the planet!

[Lisheo]

I'm tempted to agree, Mezla.
But I for one support the death penalty. Over in Ireland, the sentence for almost any sort of crime is about twelve years, on average. You've got to do something very bad indeed to get over 15 years.
Now, I, personally, think in the case of serial child molestation, rape, homicide, these people do not deserve to be rehabilitated. You may rail against this, but people like that aren't very likely to change. In a country where the legal system is lax, I think the death penalty should be introduced as a punishment.
By the way, about the massive amount of homicides in America despite the presence of the death penalty, bear in mind it is a country where you actually have a right to have a firearm, so it doesn't count as normal. When you've got a gun, you're going to be a lot more tempted to use it than you would be if you had to go through shady underworld dealings to get one.

[Shinrei]

By the way, about the massive amount of homicides in America despite the presence of the death penalty, bear in mind it is a country where you actually have a right to have a firearm, so it doesn't count as normal. When you've got a gun, you're going to be a lot more tempted to use it than you would be if you had to go through shady underworld dealings to get one.

There are so many problems with this statement, not the least of which being many of the homicides by firearm in the US were committed with a firearm acquired ILLEGALLY.

It also implies that lawful gun owners are tempted to break the law using their gun. Given the millions of gun owners who don't shoot their spouse over an argument, this is BS.

[Lisheo]

So you are saying that if you have a gun, you will never, ever, ever feel tempted to use it?
I'm sorry, but you can call that statement BS if you want, but "many" still doesn't cover the entirety.
Also, you have to take into account the challenge of getting a firearm when they are able to be sold legally. It's not going to be nearly as difficult as getting one if they are completely illegal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I disapprove, I'm just pointing out one of the factors I think may influence the number of homicides in america.

[HoosierDaddy]

We switch from the child beating thread to talk death penalty, and now we're going to switch death penalty to talk guns!

Shinrei is technically correct. But, the easy acquisition of firearms, through legal means yes, does have a role in higher homicide rates in the U.S., in my opinion. This is because most murders are done by people who know each other, and oftentimes are the result of heat of the moment passion. While removing all guns wouldn't end this situation entirely, it would make it more difficult to kill someone in the heat of that moment.

I'll admit to being biased against the personal arsenal's people tend to collect though, and a general bias against guns as well.

[Shinrei]

The number of firearm homicides compared to the number of law abiding gun owners in the US is really small.

I own a 300 year old katana. I've never been 'tempted' to use it on anyone. I don't see why ownership would equal temptation to committ one of the worst criminal acts.

[HoosierDaddy]

It's not ownership, or even the intent when purchasing. Only criminals purchase guns to commit criminal acts. I'll grant you that most people buy them for either home protection or recreational purposes (target shooting, hunting, stress relief). It's the availability. You'll grant that when people are irate, they aren't acting in their right mind? You get someone pissed off enough, and they'll grab that katana off your wall and swing it at you. The problem is that the katana is easier to dodge than a bullet.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 25 February 2009 - 12:59 AM

[masan's saddle]

Just to expand this topic slightly.
I have just been perusing through this thread for a while and I noticed that the words "society", "government" and " beliefs" keep popping up quite regularly. Perhaps illustrating that the majority ( not all !) of people posting believe in the democratic process, the maintenance of the rule of law and the preservation of "society" ( polite or otherwise).

This being the case, would people ( as tax paying voters and valuable members of the society they claim to represent), be willing to be the ones who " flick the switch "/ " push the button "/ " release the trapdoor " ?

It would be a bit like jury service, you get a summons in the post and BINGO ! a couple of weeks later after having plenty of time to think about it, you get to look into the eyes of a murderer, as the light fades, and YOU end their life. A hearty pat on the back and the knowledge that YOU are the hand of society's justice.

Maybe some of you could, I could not.

Surely as an enlightened and " civilised " society we should not be demanding something that we are not willing to do ourselves, the reality of which would be to most, to horrifying to comprehend.

Or not.............discuss or summit

[Obdigore]

Masan's Delicious Saddle:

If someone was convicted with numerous rapes/murders, using DNA or numerous eye witnessess, you better belive I would throw the switch, inject the needle, or put the gun to the back of the head.