[Venerus]

Really, really sorry if this has been hashed out already, can't find any posts on it.

Ok, so, any thoughts on whether or not in TtH we'll get some closure on what the moon (the big glowing one, not Moon's Spawn) is up to in MBotF? So far, three intriguing hints:

From "Gardens of the Moon" p 396 US HC-- Apsalar is describing the moon ("The shining one, of course"):

"Its oceans. Grallin's Sea. That's the big one. The Lord of the Deep waters living there is named Grallin. He tends vast, beautiful underwater gardens. Grallin will come down to us, one day, to our world. And he'll gather his chosen and take them to his world. And we'll live in those gardens, warmed by the deep fires, and our children will swim like dolphins, and we'll be happy since there won't be anymore wars, and no empires, and no swords and shields. Oh, Crokus, it'll be wonderful, wont it?"

and from MT, p 133 US trade PB, Menandore is reflecting (har!) upon the night sky, and the moon especially:

"The moon had risen, prison world to Menandore's true father, who was trapped within it. Father Shadow's ancient battles had made this world, shaped it in so many ways. Scabandari Bloodeye, stalwart defender against the fanatic servants of implacable certitude, whether that certitude blazed blinding white, or was the all-swallowing black. The defeats he had delivered -- the burying of Brother Dark and the imprisonment of Brother Light there in that distant, latticed world in the sky -- were both gifts, and not just to the Edur but to all who were born and lived only to one day die"

Ok so, I assume she means Scabandari as Father Shadow from the way the quote is framed. Also, this quote sounds like Scabandari fought against the Tiste Liosan at some point, too. Brother Dark must be Silchas, but Brother Light...? Might that be Grallin? Certainly not Osserc... None of the sisters are really surprised to see him free and wandering around.


I'm counting the title of Gardens of the Moon and the quote from there as two intriguing points, so neener. Yes it's cheating.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the moon certainly is a mystery, never mind the fact that Apsal'ara claims to have stolen it at one point.

totally missed that menandore quote and it makes me think that osserc truly is FL. he isnt 'Brother Light' because that person is trapped in the moon and since we have no other refrences Grallin is as good a guess as any. really only leaves one title for osserc (not counting his place as champion of high house light cuz thats relatively recent)

[Zanth13]

Sinisdar Toste;268273 said:

the moon certainly is a mystery, never mind the fact that Apsal'ara claims to have stolen it at one point.

totally missed that menandore quote and it makes me think that osserc truly is FL. he isnt 'Brother Light' because that person is trapped in the moon and since we have no other refrences Grallin is as good a guess as any. really only leaves one title for osserc (not counting his place as champion of high house light cuz thats relatively recent)

Brother light and brother dark, could doesnt count them out as Father light and (father dark?)...

it could just be the text refering to them as kin, equals, or simply brothers..but doesnt exclude them from being the Kings of thier perspective houses or even higher dieties.

[Jorram]

OK, first off, this passage is from Trull's POV, not Menandore's. I'll return back to commenting it in a minute, but first some general considerations.

I believe the quote still refers to Osserc, rather than any other Brother Light. The entire series reeks of hints that Osserc and Rake are on par. It wouldn't really do to think that Osserc is some older or "higher-class" entity than Rake, therefore his logical line of heritage is still down from Mother Dark (as also the Draconean Tree suggested).

Not to mention we do have the quote from those Liosan in HoC that spell it black on white that Osserc is son to Father Light (who might be only theoretical conjecture in any way). While of course it is hard to believe any character's POV in MBotF, this quote is at least far more direct than Trull's musings.

Now back to the latter. Menandore's true father is indeed Osserc*. It is not Grallin, neither it is someone else. This is very evident from her OWN talk, witnessed by Udinaas in a later dream (the one with Sukul, both carrying Sheltatha). This is part of the big secret, that apparently only a few Edur and mainly women know - that the Daughters are not all Scabandari's. So, if we lend credibility to the moon quote, it is still about Osserc. Lend it credibility we should not, though, because it is simply an Edur myth, twisted just as everything else they believe in. This one is particularly false, seeing that Osserc was apparently free by the time Kilmandaros and Mael killed Scabandari (this is 100% as it comes from author's description of back then in RG prologue, not from someone's image of the past; not counting of course typical SE timeline inconsistencies).

Therefore, we must conclude that (a) this quote is untrue; ( even if it was true, it would not be about Grallin, but about Osserc.

There MIGHT be a grain of truth in the whole thing, because as of today Osserc is "lost" somewhere (which could just as well be the moon). Possibly, however, he is just hiding in warrens emulating the past of Wu, like the one L'oric found him in, back in HoC.

My 2c.

-----------------

* Sukul's heritage is not so clear. In MT she refers to Osserc as father and to Sheltatha as cousin, wherever in RG she calls Sheltatha sister. I still believe she's Osserc's too, though.

[Aptorian]

As much as I like the idea of there being all kinds of fun on the moon, we can't really trust any of the stories we have on it.

Your first quote, from Apsalar, is a legend from a fishing culture. Of course a people that are bonded to the sea, will have stories about living with the fishes and being protected by a seagod of some kind.

Your second quote, which I couldn't find on the same page in my book, is from Trull I understand, not Menandore. Menandore would have never spoken of her father or anything else, in such a romantic fashion.

We can't take any of the Tiste races ideas as evidence of anything, since all their history has been twisted over the millenia.

Personally, I like to think that Osserc is hiding or captured up on the moon, it would fit with him being lost. But he wasn't lost at the time of Scabandaries death, so "Father Shadow" certainly didn't have anything to do with it.

[Silencer]

Isn't the last book taking place somewhere for-lack-of-a-better-name-wu?
Maybe the Moon?

Still, I think the moon thing might play a big part, just like the chains that keep appearing all the time.... Chain of Dogs, House of Chains, Chained in Dragnipur etc.
So.....any solid ideas people?

[Venerus]

Jorram;268383 said:

Now back to the latter. Menandore's true father is indeed Osserc*. It is not Grallin, neither it is someone else. This is very evident from her OWN talk, witnessed by Udinaas in a later dream (the one with Sukul, both carrying Sheltatha). This is part of the big secret, that apparently only a few Edur and mainly women know - that the Daughters are not all Scabandari's. So, if we lend credibility to the moon quote, it is still about Osserc. Lend it credibility we should not, though, because it is simply an Edur myth, twisted just as everything else they believe in. This one is particularly false, seeing that Osserc was apparently free by the time Kilmandaros and Mael killed Scabandari (this is 100% as it comes from author's description of back then in RG prologue, not from someone's image of the past; not counting of course typical SE timeline inconsistencies).

Therefore, we must conclude that (a) this quote is untrue; ( even if it was true, it would not be about Grallin, but about Osserc.

There MIGHT be a grain of truth in the whole thing, because as of today Osserc is "lost" somewhere (which could just as well be the moon). Possibly, however, he is just hiding in warrens emulating the past of Wu, like the one L'oric found him in, back in HoC.

My 2c.

-----------------

* Sukul's heritage is not so clear. In MT she refers to Osserc as father and to Sheltatha as cousin, wherever in RG she calls Sheltatha sister. I still believe she's Osserc's too, though.

That's true -- I'd forgotten that passage where Osserc shows up to see the three sisters, and you're right, they talk about their heritage. My bad I blame late-night reading for all of this.

Vis: the big picture: Osserc can't be father light. For one, he flat out denies it in HoC to his son, with no reason to dissemble. Second, we get this from Sukul Ankhadu yelling at Osserc for screwing Tiam (p 277 MT, the passage referenced above):

"Pure Osserc, first Son of Dark and Light, so precious!"

Can't be his own father, right?



Also fun in that passage: According to Osserc, only "Mother Dark's first children were spawned without need of any sire... and they were not Tiste Andii" (p 278 MT).

Who are her first children, anyway... and who, then, is the father for the Andii... did father Light do Mother Dark to make all three Tiste? Did MD give birth to FL and then make sweet sweet babies? Too many mysteries.

I bet Grallin knows >_>

[Jorram]

sure he does

The question about those "first children" has been recurrently given voice to on these forums. About a thousand times. Common consensus seems to be that Osserc means the Elder Gods (mostly, this is derived from the context of his speech), however nothing is still clear on that account.

[Mentalist]

Silencer;268409 said:

Isn't the last book taking place somewhere for-lack-of-a-better-name-wu?
Maybe the Moon?

No, just "somewhere we haven't seen yet"-- could be Jacuruku where the CG's hiding for all we know.

Quote

Still, I think the moon thing might play a big part, just like the chains that keep appearing all the time.... Chain of Dogs, House of Chains, Chained in Dragnipur etc.
So.....any solid ideas people?

While they are recurring motifs, nothing is known for certain.. yet
Personally, I'm intrigued by Apsalara's quotes from the Prologue
"She Stole the fire" and "She stole the moon"
was that simultaneous? and if so, do we have a "Mortal appropriating powers of Gods" thing going on-- recall Toc the Younger musing about how Jaghut stole Winter from the Wolves... And we do lack a "God of Fire"...

[Abyss]

Apsal'ara's comments run:
"She had stolen the moon once.
She had stolen fire.
She had padded the silent arching halls of the city within Moon’s Spawn."

I figure Fire is derivative of Light, so Father Light or whatever embodiment fits that role as i see it. Fire has also been linked to Olar Ethel and Silanah. various bits a pieces over time have suggested that the Imass discovering fire was due to Olar negotiating with Silanah in some way. As Olar is an Imass, perhaps Apsalara was around/involved at the same time.

The moon things is perplexing... i wanted to think she stole Moon's Spawn from Rake and took it for a joy ride before he caught her and Dragnipure'd her, but it seems to be two distinct refs'.

I forget the exact ref, but there's at least one myth about someone showing someone else a reflection of the moon and pretending to have stolen it.

- Abyss, notes it's a marvelous night for a moon dance...

[Tiger_sword]

I still like the idea that the KCCM are on the moon and that one of the reasons their back in 'wu' is that the jade fragments also crashed into the moon. I seam to recall Paran thinking that he should have checked out the moon when it changed colour in BH but he was too busy. Seams it might be an important place. Make sense then that fragments of KCCM home are called "moon"spawn.

[Mentalist]

Abyss;268739 said:

Apsal'ara's comments run:
"
I forget the exact ref, but there's at least one myth about someone showing someone else a reflection of the moon and pretending to have stolen it.

- Abyss, notes it's a marvelous night for a moon dance...

Are you referring to the "Mogora healing Mappo" thing in tBH?

[Abyss]

Nope - something maybe Greek or Native American... recall fails me, but i mean an actual, real world myth story.

That said, in the ritual to heal Mappo, the Moon DID (figuratively) move, which, in other circumstances, could be interpretted as a theft. Maybe she participated in a similar ritual.

@TSword - nice catch - KN/KC skykeeps coming from the Moon as a link to Rake's city's name Moon's Spawn. Also makes me wonder about a comment someone made somewhere in the books about Rake not knowing the skykeep's true power... and now i wonder whether that power is linked to the KC, or the power that healed Mappo...

- Abyss, notes that theft would require a REALLY big sack...

[Optimus Prime]

I think the Nahruk or the K'Chain have something to do with the Moon as well.

Osseric very well could be imprisoned or hidden on the moon.

Could the skykeeps have reached the moon via rising from the world's surface? Or did would they have used warrens to get there? If physic laws are similar, those skykeeps would have to have massive propulsion to get to the moon right?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Abyss;268935 said:

Nope - something maybe Greek or Native American... recall fails me, but i mean an actual, real world myth story.

That said, in the ritual to heal Mappo, the Moon DID (figuratively) move, which, in other circumstances, could be interpretted as a theft. Maybe she participated in a similar ritual.

@TSword - nice catch - KN/KC skykeeps coming from the Moon as a link to Rake's city's name Moon's Spawn. Also makes me wonder about a comment someone made somewhere in the books about Rake not knowing the skykeep's true power... and now i wonder whether that power is linked to the KC, or the power that healed Mappo...

- Abyss, notes that theft would require a REALLY big sack...

i do believe it was nightchill or draconus commenting to ganoes, its said that the K'Chain sorcery was based on sound and vibrations, so its possible rake has no way of unleashing moons spawns full potential. using sound waves and vibrations maybe the KCCM could have floated up to the moon and to places beyond.

[D'rek]

-Kallor also talks about how Rake is ignorant of Moon Spawn's true prowess sometime in MoI.

-I believe Samar Dev mentions in BH that there were originally more moons and that the others are either gone or no longer visible.

[Mentalist]

A said:

-Kallor also talks about how Rake is ignorant of Moon Spawn's true prowess sometime in MoI.

It's the Pannion Seer, actually. About how the Matron's freaking out thinking about it, but Rake doesn't know its true potential...

will give quote once back home

[Tiger_sword]

I believe as well that there was speculation that perhaps the KN/KC magic is based around gravity (a fact that comes from the strange cavern in the skykeep in BH). Gravity > moon... i see a connection! ...maybe!

[Optimus Prime]

Perhaps we'll get some answers in the upcoming books.

I'm also curious if the moon is a home warren to one of the races we know of.

@Tiger Sword, yeah there's been a lot of speculation and hints that the KCCM magic is related to gravity and sound I think.

[Venerus]

There's even a passage where Fear says so out-right, but who knows, he's Edur-stupid, as far as I'm concerned.