[Battalion]

After reading a thread in the MoI forum that had been returned from the dead after over five years the wrong side of Hoods Gate, I was wondering a few things in relation to the topic.

They guy was asking what warren it was that Icarium shattered.

If my memory is correct, the moment when Icarium shatters a warren takes place in the Jhag Odan, the warren shattering as an after effect of him destroying an old Azath House. He was trying to free his dad at the time.

Do we know at this time what warren it was that he shattered? Is it related to Shadow, the Whirlwind, and the Nascent, or something completely different?

If anyone has any answers I'd be much abliged.

[Mentalist]

the recent wave of speculation (following RG) suggest that he destroyed what was left of KE--this is based on the distinction b/w "sundered" and "shattered"
that theory suggests that what we've seen in the RG/MT prologue is Scabby "sundering" KE--damaging it, but not destroying it. according to that theory, KE managed to survive, albeit not exactly whole and "anchor" itself to the Odhan House. when Iccy blew it up in a fit of his trademark rage, he also "shattered" the previously "sundered" KE.
now this theory is not supported by everyone, but it's been thrown out there. I don't remember the exact theread, but it must be one of the Iccy ones.

[Dammon]

I was just wondering, but how many people do we hear mention that Iccy was the one who shattered the warren? is it just his father who says it when Fidd and that meet him in the Azath, or is it mentioned other times?

I'm just wondering because Treach also mentions that the First Empire ripped apart a warren when they invoked that soletaken ritual, so it go me thinking that maybe it was the same occurence and that only one them (either the First Empire or Iccy) was responsible.

[Mentalist]

that was also mentioned--some employ the principle of convergence and try to place the thwo events (ritual of the Beast and iccy's Azathslaying) at the exact same time, as befits a true convergence.

The problem (as always) is the fluidity (read: lack of concrete definition) of the concept of "warren".

As for your original, question, I don't know. once i get my copy of GotM back from a friend, I intend to do a throrough re-read of the series, but right now, my knowledge of such matters is sadly limited....

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Both trains of thought are valid, and given the information we've available, reasonable.

Here's what I DO know:
1-the soletaken were seeking the 'path of hands,' which presumably is related to being soletaken, or everybody'd have been there.
2-ST obviously didn't want anyone to claim the prize, having send his crack team (read: whoever he had lying around) to intervene.

by 1 we have a link back to the Beast Ritual, by 2 back to Shadow and Kurald Emurlahn.

2.5-as a corrollary to 2, Shadowthrone is a figure with nigh-on unfathomable motives at this point, and without more info I'd be groundlessly speculating.


I think that a piece of KE was snapped up by the azath, and that particular bit could have been destroyed/shattered/sundered/whatever. KE as a whole couldn't have, since people are still using it, and Hannan Mosag wanted to reunite the bits as Warlock King. But heck, who knows?

[buddhacat]

Adjutant Stormy;258848 said:

I think that a piece of KE was snapped up by the azath, and that particular bit could have been destroyed/shattered/sundered/whatever. KE as a whole couldn't have, since people are still using it, and Hannan Mosag wanted to reunite the bits as Warlock King. But heck, who knows?

I don't get why there is so much confusion about this. One of the chained dragons tells Cotillion in so many words - Kurald Emurlahn's sundering continues to this day. The implication is clear. Pieces have fallen off, others have usurped those, Icarium tore one of those apart, Dryjhna tried to appropriate one, and so forth.

[tiam]

Dammon;258770 said:

I was just wondering, but how many people do we hear mention that Iccy was the one who shattered the warren? is it just his father who says it when Fidd and that meet him in the Azath, or is it mentioned other times?

I'm just wondering because Treach also mentions that the First Empire ripped apart a warren when they invoked that soletaken ritual, so it go me thinking that maybe it was the same occurence and that only one them (either the First Empire or Iccy) was responsible.

Bear with me on this theory.

It is possible/likely that Iccy shattered a bit of KE when trying to free Gothos and killing the azath. It is also possible that the FE were utilising a fragment of KE in there soletaken ritual. Therefore when Iccy destroyed the Azath hpuse and therefore its tether the fragment went berserk caused the ritual to go awry and Imass come back to clean up.

Any holes in this?

[Mentalist]

hmmm.. not so much a "hole"..
It's just we don't really know how the various "pieces" of KE are linked to each other... For your theory to work, there'd have to be a def. link b/w the two pieces in queston, so that iccy's Azathicide would destabilise the other piece supposedly being used for the Ritual of the Beast. And if that's the case, why weren't the other fragments affected?

@Adj. Stormy--the dragons also reveal that the CG operates thru KE...

[D'rek]

tiam;258981 said:

Bear with me on this theory.

It is possible/likely that Iccy shattered a bit of KE when trying to free Gothos and killing the azath. It is also possible that the FE were utilising a fragment of KE in there soletaken ritual. Therefore when Iccy destroyed the Azath hpuse and therefore its tether the fragment went berserk caused the ritual to go awry and Imass come back to clean up.

Any holes in this?

It's good, but I can't resist the urge to take this even further by conjoining it all into a (purely hypothetical) single plot:

Imagine this! Icarium is still wandering aimlessly looking for his father and the Nameless Ones, defenders of the Azath that they are, are sworn not to let Iccy find out Gothos is in the Azath. Recall that the Nameless Ones were an extremely influential part of the FE (at one point referred to as the right hand of the emperor, or some such). Now, Dessimbelackis has his masterful plan to make a giant Soletaken/D'ivers ritual for his empire. But where would he get the energy to fuel such a thing? Well his left hand consultants whisper to him a most masterful plan: "We'll lure Iccy close to the Odhan Azath, then tell him where his father is! Iccy will attack the Odhan-House, destroy it and shatter the KE-fragment latched onto the Azath. The unleashed power can be channeled into the Ritual!"

Dessimbelackis is euphoric, puts it in motion, but they're idiots and the power unleashed is more than they can control, the Ritual goes to hell, etc. Perhaps it would've worked if Iccy's Toblakai buddy hadn't knocked him out, or maybe they just couldn't control the power unleashed like they thought they could.

[Tiger_sword]

Prehaps the azath that Iccy destroyed was within a small pocket warren of KE(the houses seam to be in strategic places, ancient cities, gates to warrens etc.) There is no telling what the house was connected to, though there does seam to be a strong link between the azath houses and KE/shadow. I reckon that it was probably a fragment of KE that had been anchored by the azath house. By the time Iccarium is around the 'sundering' had begun, the question is how far had it got? Had it begun to split apart or was it Iccy who drove the knife into the heart of KE and shattered it. I think if we can pinpoint when exactly Iccy attacked the azath house, we might find out. Of course it could be a completely seperate warren which we've yet to hear about.

[Sinisdar Toste]

skir;259007 said:

It's good, but I can't resist the urge to take this even further by conjoining it all into a (purely hypothetical) single plot:

Imagine this! Icarium is still wandering aimlessly looking for his father and the Nameless Ones, defenders of the Azath that they are, are sworn not to let Iccy find out Gothos is in the Azath. Recall that the Nameless Ones were an extremely influential part of the FE (at one point referred to as the right hand of the emperor, or some such). Now, Dessimbelackis has his masterful plan to make a giant Soletaken/D'ivers ritual for his empire. But where would he get the energy to fuel such a thing? Well his left hand consultants whisper to him a most masterful plan: "We'll lure Iccy close to the Odhan Azath, then tell him where his father is! Iccy will attack the Odhan-House, destroy it and shatter the KE-fragment latched onto the Azath. The unleashed power can be channeled into the Ritual!"

Dessimbelackis is euphoric, puts it in motion, but they're idiots and the power unleashed is more than they can control, the Ritual goes to hell, etc. Perhaps it would've worked if Iccy's Toblakai buddy hadn't knocked him out, or maybe they just couldn't control the power unleashed like they thought they could.

thats a good theory, only thing is, before iccy attacked the odhan house, he wasn't cursed. he knew his dad was in there, the NO didn't have to tell him, but i like the idea that they somehow provoked him.

[D'rek]

You're right, it was the Azath's destruction that destroyed his ability to make new memories and whatnot, but I was under the impression that even before that he didn't know where his father was (at least not until shortly before he attacked the Azath). Can anyone support either side of this?? (preferably with references or quotes, of course!)

[Adjutant Stormy~]

buddhacat;258857 said:

I don't get why there is so much confusion about this. One of the chained dragons tells Cotillion in so many words - Kurald Emurlahn's sundering continues to this day. The implication is clear. Pieces have fallen off, others have usurped those, Icarium tore one of those apart, Dryjhna tried to appropriate one, and so forth.

The reason I haven't followed the general consensus is firstly because I haven't started my full re-read (I left GOTM out in the rain...) and I don't spend aeons on these illustrious forums.

But thank you, very apt summary.

[Venerus]

I am debbie downer! A lot of this stuff is discussed in:

http://malazanworld....read.php?t=9295

Sorry to make rain on the parade


Also, patented "Kudsummaries" are divine.

[Battalion]

Dammon;258770 said:

I was just wondering, but how many people do we hear mention that Iccy was the one who shattered the warren? is it just his father who says it when Fidd and that meet him in the Azath, or is it mentioned other times?

I'm just wondering because Treach also mentions that the First Empire ripped apart a warren when they invoked that soletaken ritual, so it go me thinking that maybe it was the same occurence and that only one them (either the First Empire or Iccy) was responsible.

They talk about it in HoC, when Karsa is looking for his horse and meets the Jaghut trapped in the tree. They say something like: the Imass planted the spear into this groundn here without knowing it was the old grounds of a dead Azath" before going on to explain that the house was killed by Icarium.