[Gothos]

do you tip at McD/KFC? why not?

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Macros, on 08 April 2010 - 08:42 PM, said:

And I'm argueing that expecting payment when its not listed as a menu price is tantamount to robbery.

In my mind its like walking into a shop, picking up a bottle of coke that is listed as costing one of my British pounds. Getting to the till and the girl there saying "actually, you're expected to pay £1.15 for this"
If you WANT the 15pence, list it. Dont bitch when you don't get it.

I agree, and this applies equally to sales tax in the US.

When I went, I'd never even HEARD of such a thing, I assumed the prices I saw were like prices everywhere else - what you pay, with tax included in the price. To wander up thinking I'm getting a bargain, then have that bombshell dropped on me, what a joke. Disgraceful. I'm still ridiculously bitter I was effectively forced to do maths on holiday. It's just not cricket.

[Shinrei]

Quote

And I'm argueing that expecting payment when its not listed as a menu price is tantamount to robbery.

Life is full of those though. When you read about the wages of a job in an advertisement, they don't advertise the after tax amount. OH MY GODZ ROBBERIZ!


Simple breakdown as I see it.

For tipping:

1) Can be quite good for service staff, who often make better than minimum wage.

2) Owners save money on labor costs, and pass those savings on to the consumer.

3) The consumer ultimately have the power to decide what they pay for the service.

Against tipping:

1) The tip isn't listed on the menu, so it's sneaky.

2) The owner should pay the server's a proper wage (which I argue just raises prices, causes waiters to make less, and takes away the power from the consumers)

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I agree that listed prices should hae to include the tax, always has seemed silly to me. I think that system should be changed. However, that doesn't mean that I will try to stiff the store out of the sales tax next time I go shopping. The system is what it is.

[D'rek]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 09 April 2010 - 03:39 AM, said:

I agree that listed prices should hae to include the tax, always has seemed silly to me. I think that system should be changed. However, that doesn't mean that I will try to stiff the store out of the sales tax next time I go shopping. The system is what it is.

I don't know about the states, but I find up here in Canada a lot of the things that I'd really be upset about if they didn't include the tax are regulated so that they do and have to. Gas comes to mind as such, the advertising price at any station has to include everything so you pay precisely what the big sign says. For retail products and food services I don't mind as much.

[Use Of Weapons]

Turning the European argument on its head for a moment: it could be argued that, if you are in America where tipping forms part of the wage of the staff _and therefore is part of the price of the meal/service/good/whatever_, by _not_ tipping you are in effect stealing from the restaurant/store. You are paying less than what is expected, which is stealing. Now, it may not _legally_ be stealing, but morally, it is equivalent.

And I say this as an Irishman in the UK, who abhors the thought of a 'tipping culture'.

[Shinrei]

You know, I think I'm beginning to understand that there is something culturally deeper at work here. As I write my replies, I am having genuine trouble fathoming why the thought of tipping raises such ire in Macros and causes jitsukerr to use words such as "abhor".

I think surface arguments about pros and cons will continue to fall on deaf ears (on both sides of the debate) because apparently there must be some kind of ingrained cultural attachment and distaste happening in regards to the idea of tipping.

Basically (and it probably comes through in how I've been posting on this thread), I've basically been thinking the entire time "these guys are idiots, why can't they understand?" I don't think or operate that way on most other DB topics, because usually I can put myself in the shoes of others and while I may disagree, it's not usually a case of "I just don't get where they're coming from." In this thread I've just been facepalming the whole time.

I've come across enough of these covert cultural things in Japan that I'm wondering why this didn't occur to me sooner.

[Gothos]

Shinrei, on 09 April 2010 - 11:04 AM, said:

"these guys are idiots, why can't they understand?" I don't think or operate that way on most other DB topics, because usually I can put myself in the shoes of others and while I may disagree, it's not usually a case of "I just don't get where they're coming from." In this thread I've just been facepalming the whole time.

same thing right back at you

[Use Of Weapons]

One of those 'divided by a common language' things again. We both use the word 'tipping', we just mean slightly different things by it.

[Shinrei]

Which is exactly why there HAS to be something deeper going on in regards to this debate. It's like me wondering why you have to have special "gym shoes" in Japan which can only be worn in the gym and NO WHERE else. I think this is ridiculous, but the Japanese people I've asked about this have defended the practice with a surprising tenacity.

[Gothos]

Cultural entrenchment. While the "western" world shares a lot in lifestyle, there are differences across the board. People grow up in a certain environment and it sticks.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Yes! Agreement has been reached. My whole point, which I'll only repeat once more, is that regardless of the validity of the system(which is arguable), if you're visiting a foreign place, respect local customs especially when not doing so will cause a scene. This is common sense regardless of what custom you're talking about. If you're in America you tip, if you're in Japan you take off your freaking shoes before going into someone's home, in Canada you take off your pants upon seeing pretty ladies. Go with the flow, man.

[Macros]

If you reliable your version of "tipping" as a service charge, then its more like the mandatory charge you Americans see it as.
That would make it slightly more comprehensible to me, a tip is on top of what you pay, for great service. You seem to think its expected BECAUSE they served you. In my mind I go to a restaurant to get food served to me, and when I peruse the menu, I see a steak on the menu and think, boy, I want to eat that, but I don't want to cook it. How much are they going to charge me for cooking this delightful lump of red meat to my liking?
£8, my word, that's great no washing up for me!
Now if it says, in huge letters, that there will be additional costs to have this served to me, I'll get up and carry it to the table myself.

I don't see me not tipping as cheating the employee, the employer is cheating the employee by making them depend on the customers largess for living. Hypothetical situation, you get on your shift, its reasonably busy, and by chance, its ALL students that you get assigned, whilst Mary over there gets landed with some wealthy business men. No out of the day, for the same work, the same politeness and the same quality of service, she get $100 bonus on her miserly wage, and you get dick all. my my, something doesn't sound remotely fair to me. As someone who worked in the service industry for 5 years, I know which system I'd rather have to work under.

I know that shinrea sees this as a cultural difference, and I can only assume being raised in a place where you're expected to lash out (I don't know how much your sales tax is currently) 30% more than whats listed on the menu makes it totally acceptable. Because I know that would piss me off to no end, I think I said it earlier in the thread about the local restaurant/hotel that started adding a service charge. It did not go down well at all, and they soon put paid to the practice. Why? People didn't like the idea of getting to the till, and being told there was an extra 10% on their proposed bill. If I want to give the waitress a little something extra (not a euphemism) It should be ENTIRELY up to me, not because I feel pressured into it, or because the bill says so. Again don't go back to cheaper prices waffle, I'll counter with bad staff get fired, I've seen plenty get the heave ho when people complained, there's a multitude of pepole looking to fill those shoes.

[Cougar]

Tipping in the US isn't tipping at all. That's the bottom line. If you are expected to do it so the person serving you doesn't go home with an insufficient wage, it's not a tip, it's just part of the cost. The US system goes beyond the point of tipping. It's supposed to be a reward, not a given.

RLY is right, if it's part of the culture then just live with it.

The one problem I have with the US version is that it's a totally crackpot idea. I'm being made responsible for making up someone's wage to an acceptable level, it's technically a choice if I give it (although in reality it's no choice at all) and that is just plain stupid, no arguing. Converselt in the UK I still leave a tip for the staff (usually a little over 10% as much as 15% depending on the total cost) so it's nothing to do with not wanting to tip. But if I didn't the staff still get their minimum wage or more regardless. If anyone can explain why the former situation makes any sense when compared to the later without sounding like a fucking idot I'll 'tip' them 50 rep points.

Worse still, in the US' supposedly generous tipping culture you'd have to tip 25% -30% to make it up to the level that staff in the UK regularly enjoy, moreover since the food is cheaper, it's more like 35% -40% to make it comparable.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Even in the USA 25-30% is really an excessive tip for food. I say 15% for standard service, 20% for exceptional. A server would tell you 20% is standard now, but that's being greedy. Yes cost of living is up, but so is the price of the food so 15% is more than it used to be.

Here's a funny little story. Tipping is so ingrained into our culture, NOT tipping has become a vacation activity. Go to the all-inclusive resorts in mexico, Jamaica, HAwaii, and other such places. Often it is policy there that since it is all-inclusive tipping is strictly forbidden. Employees will be fired for accepting a tip. Th econcept of going to a bar and getting a drink without leaving a tip at these places is strange enough to us that I've heard many people specifically mention the novelty of it when discussing their vacation.

@Gothos: No, no tipping at fast food places. Why? Practically speaking, it's because there really isn't a server, there's just cooks and cashiers, neither of which are tipped positions. Also though, you don't tip fast food because you're not expected to.

This then gets into the gray area of sandwich places like Subway. Those places have decided they deserve a tip for assembling your sandwich just as a bartender deserves a tip for mixing your drink.

This post has been edited by Raymond Luxury Yacht: 09 April 2010 - 04:53 PM

[Macros]

A bartender who remembers my round and serves my quickly with a smile and a joke is more likely to get a tip than the person who totes the food from the chef to my table. When the foods great, well prepared and presented its entirely the kitchen staff.

[Wry]

As someone who's spent the past 15 years or so working in the service industry, in restaurants, hotels etc. and dealing with every nationality imaginable, especially Americans i really don't get the heat developed on this one.

You guys realise you're all arguing almost identical points, right?

It was stated very early on that in the US almost everyone tips regular service a pretty standard amount, around 10 - 15%. This can go up to 20 or 25% for very good service(correct me if i'm wrong here)
Us Euros have said that for regular service we would generally just pay the menu price and for excellent service we tip 10-15%

These two models are exactly the same, in both cases the actual tip is the 10-15% above the standard that we pay for better than normal service. The only difference is that in the US this gets lumped in with the labour cost and in Europe the labour and menu item cost are grouped together. It's not a huge cultural difference as Shin suggests, just a slight deviation in the meaning of a few words. Over here Tip refers exclusively to a reward for above average service, over there it means labour cost and reward.

So really the only valid point made in the resurrection of this thread was RLYs went he said its a dick move not to tip in the states, because it is really only paying for a portion of your transaction.

[caladanbrood]

Gothos, on 08 April 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

do you tip at McD/KFC? why not?

I still want this to be answered, I'm interested in hearing any reasoning behind it.

[RodeoRanch]

I sure don't tip at any fast food place.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

caladanbrood, on 09 April 2010 - 05:21 PM, said:

Gothos, on 08 April 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

do you tip at McD/KFC? why not?

I still want this to be answered, I'm interested in hearing any reasoning behind it.

No, no tipping at fast food places like McD/KFC. Why? Practically speaking, it's because there really isn't a server, there's just cooks and cashiers, neither of which are tipped positions (which I thought was pretty weak when I was a cook myself.) Also though, you don't tip fast food simply because you're not expected to.

This then gets into the gray area of sandwich places like Subway. Those places have decided they deserve a tip for assembling your sandwich just as a bartender deserves a tip for mixing your drink.