[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

To which I reply, follow the customs of the land. Regardless of your beliefs, and even regardless of whose beliefs are actually correct, if you come to America or any tipping culture and do not tip while there, you are an asshole. Respect local customs. If you are in a non-tippping culture, do not tip even if you think you should.

[Macros]

Oh hogwash. I'll respect proper beliefs like religious things and the like. Tipping 'culture' is just a byproduct of shoddy employment laws

[Shinrei]

Oh come off it. Don't insult our intelligence by appearing to take some sort of principled stance against employment laws so as not to appear cheap.

That's what has irritated me throughout this. You not tipping some poor waitress in the US is not going to somehow teach the US a lesson or make that waitress think "gee, our employment laws are shoddy".







(does this mean this thread is in full swing again?)

[Gothos]

it's a matter of preference. if I'm to sponsor the staff at a restaurant, put it into the meal's price and that'd be perfect. nothing to remind me of beggars and bums.

[Tapper]

Gothos, on 08 April 2010 - 09:37 AM, said:

it's a matter of preference. if I'm to sponsor the staff at a restaurant, put it into the meal's price and that'd be perfect. nothing to remind me of beggars and bums.

Not so much that.

But as a reaction to RLY and I guess to Shin, too:
I find it rather odd that a 'tipping culture' apparently means that I'm made responsible to make sure the waitress does not have to take a doggy bag home but can buy her own food. That's not tipping, that's the employer not taking full responsibility and instead leaving it to the customer. There's nothing generous about that, which, imho, is what tipping is about. To me, a tipping culture is a culture where everyone tips freely and of their own volition because they like the quality of the service, the product, or the waitress' behind. Not because it is the only way to lift someone's income above poverty.

Sure, if the employer were to raise all prices by 15% he'd also have to pay extra income tax and probably, since the waitress' salary went up and thus, I would end up paying more and tipping 15% is thus altogether a lot cheaper.

But I'd be happier personally to know that there's a decent minimum wage, which also means that if, through no fault of the employee, the cafetaria/barber would not attract as much public as is required to lift her wage to a decent standard, she's still be able to meet her expenses and go out for a drink once in a while. It also means that the tip is truly a tip, as in: 'you (and your colleagues, because here, tips are usually shared amongst the staff, dunno if the same is true in the US) really earned it.'

[Sindriss]

I have always wondered a bit about that in America actually. I mean, in Denmark you don't really tip much because the minimum wage is high enough, but it is ordinary to see people with fulltime jobs tip. Also, I think there is a general understanding concerning students that they don't have the money to tip you, but they appreciate the food and service with compliments and when they are fully educated they will come back and be more generous money-wise.

I guess that was the boring prelude to my question: Are poor students expected to tip those 10-15% as everyone else does?

[Shinrei]

Tapper, I guess I don't understand.

Quote

But I'd be happier personally to know that there's a decent minimum wage,

If the money you pay is the same, and the employee is making enough money, and the employer is making money, and there are other possible benefits such as the place can employ more people and you can decide whether the person is really worth 15% or not, it seems like you're just making up a reason to be upset about it.

@Sindriss

Students are given a break generally. When high school students come into a restaurant, the wait staff already knows what is likely coming, so it's no big deal.

[Gothos]

cutting costs like this only leads to less expense on the employer's side and no extra people, as I see it. Hire extras just for the heck of it? He's got enough people working to serve them clients already. Or, they won't be stuffing two elevator boys or door boys in hotels, now will they?

It's one thing when you show appreciation. But in your tipping culture you're EXPECTED to tip, and that's just robbery.

[Sindriss]

Shinrei, on 08 April 2010 - 10:53 AM, said:

Tapper, I guess I don't understand.

Quote

But I'd be happier personally to know that there's a decent minimum wage,

If the money you pay is the same, and the employee is making enough money, and the employer is making money, and there are other possible benefits such as the place can employ more people and you can decide whether the person is really worth 15% or not, it seems like you're just making up a reason to be upset about it.

@Sindriss

Students are given a break generally. When high school students come into a restaurant, the wait staff already knows what is likely coming, so it's no big deal.

How about university students?

[Tapper]

Shinrei, on 08 April 2010 - 10:53 AM, said:

Tapper, I guess I don't understand.

Quote

But I'd be happier personally to know that there's a decent minimum wage,

If the money you pay is the same, and the employee is making enough money, and the employer is making money, and there are other possible benefits such as the place can employ more people and you can decide whether the person is really worth 15% or not, it seems like you're just making up a reason to be upset about it.

Except that with a standard decent minimum wage, there is no if, and, and, and required, the worker earns enough.
Also, can I decide whether or not the person is really worth 15%? In Europe, you don't tip if service or product is flawed, but the person gets the standard salary anyway.
If I do not tip in the US, I cut the persons wages. There's a fundamental difference there, it's more or less akin to asking the manager at your table in a Euro restaurant, except that in the US, I'm being harsh towards the employee instead of to the one who is responsible for the quality of the place and its service: the manager.

Also, the argument that the place can employ more people is bogus. The place still needs to sell a certain extra quantity of product to cover those extra wages. If the 15% was factored into the products price, that amount would be the same.

[Shinrei]

Tapper, on 08 April 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 08 April 2010 - 10:53 AM, said:

Tapper, I guess I don't understand.

Quote

But I'd be happier personally to know that there's a decent minimum wage,

If the money you pay is the same, and the employee is making enough money, and the employer is making money, and there are other possible benefits such as the place can employ more people and you can decide whether the person is really worth 15% or not, it seems like you're just making up a reason to be upset about it.

Except that with a standard decent minimum wage, there is no if, and, and, and required, the worker earns enough.
Also, can I decide whether or not the person is really worth 15%? In Europe, you don't tip if service or product is flawed, but the person gets the standard salary anyway.
If I do not tip in the US, I cut the persons wages. There's a fundamental difference there, it's more or less akin to asking the manager at your table in a Euro restaurant, except that in the US, I'm being harsh towards the employee instead of to the one who is responsible for the quality of the place and its service: the manager.

Also, the argument that the place can employ more people is bogus. The place still needs to sell a certain extra quantity of product to cover those extra wages. If the 15% was factored into the products price, that amount would be the same.

Tapper, the place can be crap (the food is bad, the place messy or whatever) but the service could be great. You tip the server decently, but never eat there again. Because you know that tip is staying in the server's pocket, and isn't being filtered through the owner's fingers. There may be a floor manager, but ultimately the service quality is up to the server, and because money is a good motivator generally service is going to be good. If I get rude service in Paris, well, I have to pay the higher price and there's not much I can do about it except make a blog or something.

You make it sound like servers are unhappy with the system with words like unfair wages. The truth is, waiting tables is a good job in the US because you can make more than the minimum wage. So the workers are doing just fine. Don't feel sorry for the waiters. There is nothing unfair about the system, unless you believe giving consumers more control is unfair. You don't see waiters out in the streets picketing for higher wages.

And Gothos, the "robbery" you speak of - well, if increased wages equals increased prices, how is "stealth stealing" better? Because then you don't have to think about it then?

And Tapper, it is easier to employ a few extra people at $2.50 an hour than it is to employ them at $10. Maybe you're rigth, and this doesn't actually happen, but it seems plausible.

[Gothos]

I'd like to pay what it says in the menu, is all. Also, to me, a tipping culture cheapens the gesture. Instead of making people feel good for being tipped, they get angry if they don't. Instead of maybe being a good customer if you do, you're a gaping asshole if you don't. Not my kind of motivation.

I don't feel sorry for the waiters, oh no. A few people I know went to the UK to do jobs like pizza delivery and waiting tables, and they could pay for their living from the tips alone, leaving the whole salary to be safely blown on recreation and save nothing. Good for them. Personally I'm looking into some opportunities to school myself in the job and hire myself out as a waiter on occasions such as New Year's Eve. Incredible pay for the effort. A colleague of mine is a barrista and makes really decent money on that, too.

[Tapper]

Shinrei, on 08 April 2010 - 02:40 PM, said:

Tapper, the place can be crap (the food is bad, the place messy or whatever) but the service could be great. You tip the server decently, but never eat there again. Because you know that tip is staying in the server's pocket, and isn't being filtered through the owner's fingers. There may be a floor manager, but ultimately the service quality is up to the server, and because money is a good motivator generally service is going to be good. If I get rude service in Paris, well, I have to pay the higher price and there's not much I can do about it except make a blog or something.

Ok, so the tip isn't split amongst the staff, but is just for the one bringing the plates and drinks?

Here, in the regular restaurants/bars the pot is split, out of the philosophy that the kitchen being on time, the dishwashers doing their job and the sommelier (if they have one) making sure the wine's right is as important as the waiter bringing you the stuff with a smile and a comment and a good knowledge of what wine should go with what dish and who ordered potatoes and who ordered rice on the side. As such, I do not tip or tip a lot less if the waiter is doing a splendid job but is bringing me cold food. These may be things the waiter can do nothing at all about.

Quote

You make it sound like servers are unhappy with the system with words like unfair wages. The truth is, waiting tables is a good job in the US because you can make more than the minimum wage. So the workers are doing just fine. Don't feel sorry for the waiters. There is nothing unfair about the system, unless you believe giving consumers more control is unfair. You don't see waiters out in the streets picketing for higher wages.

I have no clue what they'd like - I just try to explain why, with being used to the Euro system, I find the american one odd

Quote

And Tapper, it is easier to employ a few extra people at $2.50 an hour than it is to employ them at $10. Maybe you're rigth, and this doesn't actually happen, but it seems plausible.

There's an optimum between the number of tables you have and the number of personell needed. More does not equate better or more accurate from some point on.
Also, we're not talking 2.5 vs 10, but according to the 15% law, 8.5 (or 7.5, factoring in reduced costs for the employer) vs 10 .

This post has been edited by Tapper: 08 April 2010 - 05:05 PM

[Aristai]

Generally you're not just tipping out the server. Depends on the place and their rules, but usually not. The server might have to tip out the bar, the hostess, the kitchen and possibly the doorman/bouncer. I spent close to a decade cooking in various resteraunts and in many places I was being tipped out 2% by the floor and in one place 3%. On top of my salary wage.

[Macros]

no time to read up, but, shinrea appear cheap comment.

politely stick your finger in a socket, since I cant get to japan to slap you.

I do tip. When service warrants it. In fact I tip more often than is common here. If you're calling me cheap because I dont feel like being pressured into tipping for average service, I'd say what I'm thinking, and it would not be polite,, but the mod stick would be waved in my direction.

[Macros]

ok, half time.

Theres little I can say that Tapper et al haven't already said, and saying "what tapper said" isn't really DB material.

Theres a dead horse here, I'm going to call PETA and have shinrea arrested for continuing to beat it.


I have no problem with leaving a tip.
None, but when its EXPECTED for me to tip, and I'ma dick for not doing it, you can go fuck yourself.

I took the family out for a feed not so long ago to get back in the good books. And theres no way in hell I'm lashing 15% on top of a £110 bill.

Now before you light up with the "well if the waiters were paid less then the meal would be cheaper" bullshit, I don't care if I was feeding another 3 people, and the total was £110, I'm still not going to throw another £20 on top because the staff did their fucking job. EVER

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

That's fine, just know that you're being the arrogant guy who refuses to adapt to local customs because he insists his way is better. It's like you're an honorary stereotypical American!

[Macros]

Sweet, the only diffrence is I actually am from Ireland.

I'll pay for my meal, no problem, if the service is good, I'll give a tip. But not 15%, I dont give a shit about culture, thats just plain robbery, if its not on the listed menu price, it should NOT be expected.
Same goes for bars, if I'm drinking in a bar all day, I'll not be tipping freddy behind the bar every time, if hes good craic and feeds us drink all day (you know, pours drinks, serves them, as is in his basic job description, the job the owner pays him for), sure we'll throw him a tip at the end of the day.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Macros, on 08 April 2010 - 08:08 PM, said:

Sweet, the only diffrence is I actually am from Ireland.

I'll pay for my meal, no problem, if the service is good, I'll give a tip. But not 15%, I dont give a shit about culture, thats just plain robbery, if its not on the listed menu price, it should NOT be expected.
Same goes for bars, if I'm drinking in a bar all day, I'll not be tipping freddy behind the bar every time, if hes good craic and feeds us drink all day (you know, pours drinks, serves them, as is in his basic job description, the job the owner pays him for), sure we'll throw him a tip at the end of the day.

Dude, it's not robbery, the prices are lower because the wages are lower. What's the difference if you add 15% to the end tab, or the price starts 15% higher to begin with? You're paying the same price. With tipping you actually have the option of NOT leaving it if the service is shitty.

Bottom line is the same. If you come to a tipping culture and do not tip, you come across as arrogant with a superiority complex. Get over yourself. Not tipping in America because you are European and too cool for it is real world trolling.

I'm not trying to convince you that this method is best and should be used everywhere. It is the way things are though, and ignoring local customs because you think they are stupid is just a meathead way to act. Do whatever you want in your country, but follow the lead of your host country. This is good advice for ANY custom in ANY country. You are a guest, don't be a jerk.

[Macros]

And I'm argueing that expecting payment when its not listed as a menu price is tantamount to robbery.

In my mind its like walking into a shop, picking up a bottle of coke that is listed as costing one of my British pounds. Getting to the till and the girl there saying "actually, you're expected to pay £1.15 for this"
If you WANT the 15pence, list it. Dont bitch when you don't get it.