[Aptorian]

Your not mistaken, KG and SD is the twin chambers of his heart and the power of magic flows through his veins.

[Regaez]

Aptorian;259357 said:

Your not mistaken, KG and SD is the twin chambers of his heart and the power of magic flows through his veins.

Therefore, why does he need be any more? Could he... dare I say it?... be a "supreme" god? Greater than all others? The "father" of all warrens - nay, he IS the warrens! So is it not possible that he exists outside of the realms that constrict all others? Perhaps, like the Mhybe, everyone exists in K'rul's dream and he is the owner of the dream?

I know I am going to get shut-down, dismantled and sent to the scrap heap after those last comments - but I just had to say them.


Also, all this talk on K'rul reminds me of Icarium. I wish to seek further views on the end of RG with regards to Icarium, but is this the wrong place to ask about it? (I thought it best to ask first)

[D'rek]

Regaez;259383 said:

Therefore, why does he need be any more? Could he... dare I say it?... be a "supreme" god? Greater than all others? The "father" of all warrens - nay, he IS the warrens! So is it not possible that he exists outside of the realms that constrict all others? Perhaps, like the Mhybe, everyone exists in K'rul's dream and he is the owner of the dream?

the problem therein is that a lot of that is Burn's job, in some way or another. As for being a supreme God, it's possible, but I wouldn't count on it, as he, Draconus and Nightchill are very much portraryed as equals in the MoI prologue. Plus you'd think folk like Raest would be a bit more impressed if he were the alpha-god.

Quote

Also, all this talk on K'rul reminds me of Icarium. I wish to seek further views on the end of RG with regards to Icarium, but is this the wrong place to ask about it? (I thought it best to ask first)

indeed, there are already a number of Icarium and Icarium's-machine threads. Best to play it safe and peruse through those. If something's pertinent is missing from them, then you can revive it.

[Goblin]

mob16151;254169 said:

The only problem I see with your theory is there already a queen of dreams and I dont think 2 gods can have the same aspect ala Trake and the wolves of winter.

Just to play devils advocate here - don't the twins and the main Letherii (sp?)god share the same aspect?

[Mentalist]

the Errant was retired-his power strethed only in the city of Letheras

K'rul can't be the supreme god, btw, b/c he did not create the Elder warrens.

[Wampyry]

Some more ammo for your discussions:

GOTM 253 TOR. Pran Chole - in Kruppe's dream - talking about the T'lan Imass.
Why, Kruppe wonders is he here?
Pran Chole. I have come because I was called, by whom I know not. Perhaps
it is the same with you.
But Kruppe is dreaming. This is Kruppe's dream.
The pregnant Rhivi woman comes into the dream
Krul brings Tattersail & co. to the dream
It seems pretty clear that Kruppe did not dream these people. These people
were inserted into Kruppe's dream by Krul.

MOI 27. Krul is waling through Koreli on his way to Karllor
One figure walked the landscape alone...He walked as if gathereing suffering
unto himself...Beyond the suffering he absorbed, Krul, would have willingly
embraced their broken souls.
Seems like Shield Anvil dutries.

MOI 275. Lady Envy has been summoned to Krul. She is a little bitchy and
says Are you my master, Krul? Since when - images flood her mind.
...those veins, those arteries, they are the warrens. Who created this? Who?
Dear Lady, Krul replied, you have your answer.
Imag

[Mentalist]

GOTM 253--like I said, k'rul operates thru dreams. doesn't make it his aspect

MOI 27--not sure what to make of that. don't think a God can be SA

MOI 275--K'rul is the shaper of Paths--new warrens are Paths (path of sky/death/life/stone/light/etc). the new warrens draw power from SD--this supports my pet theory that by creating new warrens the old Draconean crew exhausted SD, making it all dead-like, the way we see it in RG.

[Sinisdar Toste]

but SD can still be used, the sisters use it on their assault of quick ben, its said that SD and KG are the chambers of k'ruls heart, and darkness, because its a void, sucks power in and SD pumps it out.

kinda far-fetched but that "chambers of k'ruls heart" reference has to mean something

[pastures]

K'rul could well be one of the "ultimate gods". The others being MD and Chaos (if it has a godhead).

Maybe K'rul didn't *shape* the Elder warrens per se, but he sure as heck encompasses them. Thus, K'rul is the god of magic. All aspected magic stems from KG and SD. SD is pure energy (i.e. chaos energy) that has some order imposed on it. I dare say that all Elder warrens stem from these two warrens.

Envy's little dialogue suggests to me that K'rul is also the god of the Elder warrens. "Are you my master K'rul?" I dont get why pple are making the distinction between god of young magic and god of old magic. It doesnt make sense at all. the dragons are magic embodied. K'rul basically made them what they are. Why is it so hard to believe that K'rul also runs the Elder warrens?

Has SD been exhausted? No way. If it was, magic would cease to exist. You can't exhaust chaos (from which SD is shaped) anyway.

[Mentalist]

If K'rul ran the Elder warrens, I'd expect the Jaghut (who are from omtose pellack, an Elder Warren) to worship him, or be aware of him. not one Jaghut we know has even mentioned him.
also, Togg and Fanderay were there before the Elder Gods--MoI tells us that.

I don't think we can even begin to compare K'rul to MD--after all, Mommy D was apparently the first thing that existed. The Elder Gods were only able to rise in power following the demise of the various k'Chain...

And then There are the Degaroth, who came even before the K'Chain. If you put K'rul vs the Degaroth, I wouldn't put my money on K'rul...

Re: Elder vs Deck Gods--it may not make sense to you, but to me it maes perfect sense--Evolution. the Elder Gods use crude, raw power of the Elder Warrens, drawn from the rough structure of the Holds. Deck Gods use much more refined power of the paths (K'rul's warrens) and there is a much more rigid hirarchy and imposition of order via the Deck of Dragons.

Re: Dragons being "pure magic"--we know that how? Yes, there were 20-30 a"spected dragons", who shaped the warrens for K'rul, but what about the hundreds of feral dragons? were they also magic incarnate? If so, why did they allow Rake&the family to herd them into SD to die?

Seriously, I think there's waaay too much hype around K'rul... Why does there have to be an all-powerful deity anyhow?

[pastures]

i think Gothos may know what K'rul does. Certainly the dragons do since they're his lackeys. Togg and Fandarey could be aberrations, or the statement could be wrong, or they could be older than the young Elder gods, but not older than the elder Elder gods.

I believe K'rul to be the third god after MD. It is in one of the quotes. And thats why i believe him to be so powerful. The second (discounting chaos) is Father Light. After that, a "savage imposition of order" (presumably on the chaotic matter) that has to be K'rul shaping chaos into magic (this is how SD was formed). This is why SD is one of the twin chambers of his heart.

And yes i blive in the evolution of magic. Who doesn't? Its more a case of the evolution being limited to K'rul's confines (his body or whatever).

and might i add that there have been more than enough hints about dragons being magic incarnate - both in the books (e.g. dragon blood) and from SE himself.

but i do have to ask a qn. Are the so called feral dragons without magic? i always thought that all dragons (feral or not) had magic. "Feral" just refers to whether or not they subscribe to K'rul's mandate to police the warrens.

[Mentalist]

ah, well, here's where we disagree...

I percieve the world of Malaz as a number of separate worlds--with the Elder Warrens being self-contained worlds, and Wu being just another world in this universe. as such, I do not really perceive K'rull to be the Malaz equivalent of the first Giant of the Norse mythology from whose body parts the world was created--like several othrs, I treat the whole "circulatory system" imagery as a metaphor, albeit a very poetic one.
Re: Gothos--Gothos knew of K'rul, that is true. However, Gothos was a jaghut Ascendant, perhaps the greates of them all, and he showed no sign of reverence towards the Elders. The fact that he also seemed to know just about everything else in the world also makes him a kind of exception.

Also, if you belive the order of gods to be MD - FL - K'rul, where does Tiam fit in--since K'rul, like all others lapped up her blood?

RE: Togg
MOI, mmpb, pg 42
"The three distant figures unveiled warrens, each vanishing into their Elder realms
The beast elected to follow none of them. They were young entities as far as he and his mate were concerned, and the warren she might have fled to was, in comparison to those of the Elder Gods, ancient."

[pastures]

Ok. Fair enough. Our basic world view is very different. I believe there are separate worlds, but these worlds can be located either in the physical realm or the magical realm or even in both, and there is a mysterious and pervasive (almost universally so) interaction between the two realms.

Tiam could have been the architect of the "savage imposition of order", which would make K'rul the fourth god that arose naturally out of the creation of magic by Tiam (just like FL came about by the introduction of chaos - the big bang, essentially).

And also, are we sure that K'rul is draconean? Or is that just from the as yet unverified tree?

And who were those 3 distant figures? I forget. Like i said, there are elder elder gods and there are elder gods. T&F are obviously more of elder elder gods, but not necessarily in the first batch.

[Mentalist]

The three distant figures are the three EGs from the MOI prologue. I'm not going to type out the wholo prologue here, so you'll have to take my word for it--they are K'rul, Draconus and Sister of Cold Nights, who came to Jacuruku to off Kallor. The quote in my last post is from Togg's PoV--"Riven with pain, white fur stained and dripping blood, the gouged pit of its lost eye glittering wet" (MoI mmpb, pg 41). It's Togg thinking, it sees the three EGs, and they are very young compared to it.

[pastures]

ok. good post. as i now recall, T&F were around at the time when it was all just darkness. While not MD's children, they might even be older than the Andii. Or maybe even older than a sentient MD... Thus i classify them as aberrations. It's possible there are even more aberrations that were around before the big bang. But still, the gods that were birthed around the time of the big bang are still pretty godlike (omnipotent) when it comes to the universe as we know it. In fact, T&F don't seem to be all that powerful. They were prob merely very old entities of darkness, but not necessarily 'godlike' in the sense that they are gods of an aspect of the universe (such gods have godlike elemental power). Certainly, being gods of beasts is pretty powerful, but its not as elemental as some other elemental forces, i dont think.

[Mentalist]

well, I guess we;ll have to agree to disagree here, untill SE provides us with more info on the matter. And since the US cover of TTH features Togg, at least that particular question might be answered...

[Aptorian]

There's another option that is being overlooked. It's possible that MD did not create the world of Burn, it existed before MD and the other elementals or eldergods emerged from Chaos.

That way things like Maels warren/the sea and creatures like the Ay and dragons can easily be older than the three EGs from MoIs prologue.

[Sinisdar Toste]

pastures;259886 said:

And yes i blive in the evolution of magic. Who doesn't? Its more a case of the evolution being limited to K'rul's confines (his body or whatever).

this is the exact reason why i like this place

[Skywalker]

This is going to be a very long rant. Deep breath...

A few things I need to mention (and dammit I don't have my copy of RG on me, or I woulda quoted)... I noticed a few things during my currently in progress reread of RG.

The first relevant quote is found on RG page 196, UK MMPB. I think Mael is thinking about Icarium's arrival etc. (I noted the page # as I read, but forgot who is talking - go figure! May not be Mael)... he explicitly says K'rul did not create the Elder warrens.

Later, during Seren Pedac's first conversation with Mockra, Mockra tells her that thinking of the Warrens as the simple opening of K'rul's veins and imposition of order on power is a simplistic way of looking at it. If K'rul had done that, all power would've been tainted with his despair... and that would not do.

So K'rul was not alone when he fashioned the Warrens. He fashioned them as a dialog... each warren is one of his veins, yes, but with him (consciousness), and his heart at one end (made of SD and KG), and a living, limited entity at the other. These entities need necessarily be turned away from the warren/ its users etc. or they would influence the very nature of power. However, they must be sentient to carry on the "dialogue". So dragons...

Mockra seems to be breaking some very primary rules to talk to Seren Pedac.

Further, in MOI, K'rul tells Lady Envy that while he did create the warrens, he seeks no worship, no appeasement, and certainly requires no modulation of the desires of the users of that power. He is content to let them play so long as they don't hurt the very fabric of the structure.

Now on topic, all this being said... K'rul's aspect was never really revealed. We know he is worshipped using blood rites - but all Elder gods are. Blood is their power, period. I think it is simplistic to characterize him as the God of Magic, because he didn't really create magic - he imposed order on it, and sort of sacrificed himself in the process.

For reasons already stated, I do not subscribe to dreams being his aspect either.

I'm gonna say K'rul, if anything, is the God of ORDER. He is anti-chaos - all elder gods were, if Draconus' fashioning of Dragnipur or Kilimandaros/ Mael's displeasure with Scabandari are any clue. Only the Errant with his pushes and nudges seems to defy that statement... but then his work is hardly random or chaotic. He revels in tragedy...

Nuff said for now. Pick it apart, folks!

[Aptorian]

His aspect wasn't dreams originally but it is what he uses to get around currently.

According to Letherii mythology I's have pegged an elemental force called the Errant as the God of Order.

I don't think K'rull was more special than Draconus or Sister of Col Níghts, just more ambitious.

On another note, you think Mocra is a he? I imagined it as a she

EDIT: just to clarify, I'm still not convinced one way or another that any of the eldergods function as more than an avatar of a much greater natural force.