[MecnunK]

In a re-read I am doing at the moment the warren mockra speaks with Seran Pedac. Is she simply delusional or do warrens speak? I can not recall any other warrens communicating before this. If Seren is not mad then it raises some interesting possibilities as it implies the rest of the warrens can also communicate and as such are entities capable of thought..wonder if they talk to each other , play golf on weekends, poker on Friday..Mockra always wins at poker ofcourse..

The warren tells Seren that all the warrens are there and that there is something on top like a web ? would this be chaos, interlinked with each aspect and perhaps providing power in some form?

But there is also a mention of the other whose face is turned away..what or who is this as apparently warrens only work because of this other..

Any thoughts theories or discussions on this that I may have missed?

[Silencer]

I would suggest the other is K'rul, and I imagine that the web is chaos.

Mockra may or may not speak/be sentient. We have one other known time when someone thought the mockra was "eager" - Kulp in DG. But he said it was a trap, to think of mockra as a being, a god to be worshipped. Sorcery can be the means to ascendancy, but there is no point in worshipping the means. Or something like that. Anyway, hope that helps - anyone got references?

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Well, K'rul is possibly the binding force of the warrens- they are his blood.

The entity that is turned away is more enigmatic. An unknown elder? A god of otataral? Perhaps related to the Jade dudes (like the one buried in the Otataral Island)?

I get the feeling that this is a situation somewhat like Burn's sleep- to attract the attention of this entity, like awakening Burn, would really, really, really, really damage or destroy the standing order of things. Hence- an antithetical force or a foundation for that order that we perceive as (and apparently are embodied by) the warrens.

EDIT: In retrospect, K'rul as a facilitator (turned away), per the previous ideas, seems quite reasonable too.

[Silencer]

The thing with Burn, is the she has only been sleeping for a couple of thousand years. Only since the CG started poisoning her. So.....why the hell was anyone around before then? A bit screwed.
Sorry for the tangent!

It is possible that the other force mentioned is not K'rul, although he and chaos are the only two that we know of who fit. Maybe Grizzen Farl? Although he gets mentioned every time we need an Elder God and don't already have one to fit the role.....
Otataral was created by the Soletaken/D'ivers at the fall of the First Empire, and also perhaps a little influenced by the Jade thingies. So it is unlikely that Otataral is involved....

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Sure, sure. Of course, I'm just guessing randomly. I take the official position as "wait and see."

K'rul is an interesting choice, K'rul was cursed by Kallor to weaken into obscurity, so I don't know if he was the hands-off type before, but I doubt it. We do know, however, that K'rul would probably be more involved if he had the chance (or does he already?- Tattersail / Silverfox + Kruppe?). I think the turned-away is likely someone else, since a web that binds the warrens seems an awful lot like the veins of K'rul.

[Silencer]

Yeah, wait and see is a good idea.

Perhaps K'rul's return is why mages (read: QB) are getting more powerful?
But the thing with Silverfox was described as an opportunity, an unexpected one, so I don't think that counts as a huge increase in involvement. But K'rul's veins are what the warrens flow through, not what binds them together. In between the veins is chaos, therefore more likely to be considered a binding substance...

[D'rek]

Silencer;252255 said:

The thing with Burn, is the she has only been sleeping for a couple of thousand years. Only since the CG started poisoning her. So.....why the hell was anyone around before then? A bit screwed.
Sorry for the tangent!

Because its not the being awake that blows stuff up, its the waking up while poisoned that flattens civilizations and buries everyone.


The entity could also somehow be Mother Dark. She's talked about plenty, but never shows her face, thus the "turned away"...

[Aptorian]

I made a thread about this a while back.

As I recall Mocra claims that K'rull created Mocra as it is because there needed to be a concient entity that personified the warrens or something.. bah, I can't remember... must search.

[MecnunK]

I dont think the other is whose face is turned away is Krul..simply because krul is the seen/known one who created the warrens also this from chapter 14 :

" Seren Pedac, Krull would not act alone in this sacrifice, lest he fill every warren with despair". Dialogue, presupposition, yes, of the plural. One with another. Or succession of the others, for this dialogue must be ongoing, indeed eternal.

Do I speak of the master of the holds? The master of the Deck?. Perhaps- the face of the other is ever turned away. From you, from me. from all of us.

master of holds is Errant and master of deck is Paran. They are being hinted at or atleast one is as being the "other" BUT their face is not turned away as they mingle in the storyline and with characters physically and more they are within rather than without the schematic of warrens.

At first I thought it was just drivel/psychobabble to fill a page up or create an artifical reason for Seren's experimentation with mockra but more I think on it more I am convinced there is some truth/hint here which is going to be crucial going forward or in some final climax...

Burn is an interesting idea btw..she has certainly turned away....

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think its tiam, would fit with the dragons purpose in the warrens and explain where she's been for all these years.

[Wampyry]

What about Mother Dark she has certainly turned away and she is at
a power level equal or greater than Krull. Incidentally, I haven't a clue
as to what Mockra was conveying to Seren. What presupposes dialogue -
grunts?

[Old Hunch Arbat]

I'll hunt down the reference - it's in that conversation between Seren Pedec and Mockra - where Mockra tells her that his/her/its (Mockra's) magic is the magic of language (in essence) and then goes on to state that the other warrens and thus all other types of magic, in turn, are beholden to language for their effects. This seems to imply that Mockra has some sort of overarching control over all other warrens - or something like that. As I said I'll hunt down the reference. I found this very intriguing indeed.

In that part of the book is, as well, a description of Udinaas' dream wherein he dismisses the Errant and Menandore, laughing at them, and telling them that they are in his dream, not he in theirs. This lead me to wonder if Udinaas posses Mockra magic of a particularly potent character, which he simply refuses to use.

OHA

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Got the reference pages - Canadian edition, pp 416-418. I invite others to re-read this as well, because I believe the answer to the questions posed at the outset of this thread are written down for us all to see - but we have to tease the answer out of the dialogue between Mockra and Seren Pedac. He starts by telling her...

Quote

One warren lies like a web over all the others, and its voice is the will necessary to shape magic.

Mockra then goes on to tell her that the others were wrong when they (scholars, mages, etc.) thought that it was undifferentiated chaos that served this function, although he (Mockra) could understand why they had thought that. He then states...

Quote

For the warrens to thrive, coursing in their appointed rivers and streams, there must be a living body, a grander form that exists in itself. Not chaos. Not Dark, nor Light. Not heat, not cold. No, a concious aversion to disorder. .."The dialogue then is the feeding of power. Power unimaginable, power virtually omnipotent, unassailable...so long as that other's face remains turned away.

Mockra then goes on to tell Seren that K'rul's opening of his veins and arteries would have been futile...

Quote

...Without living flesh, without organized functionality..."Ah, the warrens Seren Pedac, they are dialogue. Do you see now?

As he leads her through the logical steps required for her to understand what he is saying Mockra further elaborates upon what he means by dialogue, and where that has its origins...

Quote

"Dialogue. Presuppositions, yes, of the plural. One with another. Or succession of others, for this dialogue must be ongoing, indeed, eternal."..."Do I speak of the Master of the Holds? The Master of the Deck? Perhaps - the face of the other is ever turned away - to all but K'rul himself.

Mockra then goes on to explain that the eternal dialogue that structures the warrens is based on the rules of language and grammar, and that one function of that particular type of language - the internal dialogue - is intended to deceive the thinker. The face of the "other" with whom this internal conversation takes place remains ever turned away - because of the nature of language the conversation is held in - and that it is Mockra himself that establishes the rules of grammar, and with whom that conversation must take place.

Quote

"The dialogue, however, can be sensed if not heard - such is its power. The construction of language, the agreement in principle of meaning and intent, the rules of grammar - Seren Pedac, what did you think Mockra was? If not a game of grammar? Twisting semantics, turning inference, inviting suggestions, reshaping a mind's internal language to deceive its own senses? Who am I? Why, Serenc Pedac, I am Mockra"

Seren Pedac then asks if Mockra is a god. He refuses to answer, and mocks her with that refusal. He does not deny his own sentient existence, however. He points out that she having a conversation with an entity whose face remains "turned away" from all but herself (her companions cannot hear them talking). He also tells her that his (Mockra's) unique nature is fundamental to not only his own warren (Mockra) but to all other types of magic as well (all magic is dialogue using the rules of language) and, most importantly, to the very existence of any kind of magic at all.

Quote

"Unless my greatest deceit is the announcement of my own existence! There are rules in language, and language is needed for the stating of the rules.

And now we're right back to Mockra's initial declaration about the one warren that lies like a web over all the others and that "...its voice is the will necessary to shape magic."

Mockra defines itself, for the purposes of this discussion as the very origins of language itself. And Mockra-as-magic is the warren that sits over top of all the others.

Mockra's magic is that of language - and it exerts it effects not only by shaping the specific dialogues required for the manifestation of particular magics/warrens, but also providing the means to articulate the rules that allow for any kind of magic at all. And the origins of our own internal dialogues remain obscure for all of us - it is a spontaneous, emergent event within that is revealed only to ourselves, although others may see evidence of it. So not only is the face of that which allows language to erupt within us hidden from others, it also remains hidden from ourselves - although we are all entirely aware that we are conversing, at that moment, with a sentient entity. If we were all to live for ever that internal dialogue would indeed be "...ongoing, indeed, eternal."

Although he does not come right out and state it categorically, Mockra leads us to believe that K'rul too is engaged in an eternal dialogue within that allows for the existence of magic to continue without K'rul becoming overwhelmed by despair. Mockra provides the means for that dialogue. But here is the infinite loop - Mockra is a label used to define that ineffable process which leads to any kind of language at all in the first place, and in it's particualar engagement within K'rul it exerts an effect that keeps magic flowing in and out, ever refreshed and eternal. That dialogue externalized, defines the qualities of the warrens.

MOCK - to mimic, imitate; to challenge; defy; to deceive, delude

The "Other" is not Mother Dark, or Tiam, or the Errant, or Gannoes Paran ...it is Mockra itself.

And even more questions...if the eternal dialogue is within, who is the enemy? And Udinaas is fully aware of what Seren Pedac is doing when she shifts the pain from her knees to his. His awareness of her activities with Mockra and his capacity to summon and dismiss gods from his dreams makes me think that he may, in addition to being very intelligent and disciplined, possess some rather potent Mockra capabilities of his own.

I'm exhausted. I'll have to edit this a bit more tomorrow. In the meantime, I hope this helps. If it doesn't no matter - it was fun doing the detective work.

OHA

[Wampyry]

Old Hunch Arbat,

Thanks for the explanations. I wll re-read them a few times. Your analysis
certainly is clearer than SE's statements. Appreciate and applaud your
effort. Have Rep

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Rather than edit I will elaborate - after a good night's sleep.

Our own internal dialogue has an origin and a manifestation.

ORIGIN: At its deepest level language simply emerges - IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD - no one knows where it comes from. So the face of that with whom we speak remains turned away from everyone including ourselves. But speak we do, to ourselves, and our thoughts become coherent.

MANIFESTATION: When we are speaking coherently our thoughts become internally audible so we converse - but although we recognize those thoughts as our own (the face is now turned towards us) no one else can hear us thinking so the face remains turned away from all but ourselves.

Mockra tells us he provides the means for both types of language, thus providing for K'rul the means to not, in essence, commit suicide by opening his veins and arteries into the warrens. Mockra provides a means of making any kind of magic at all (K'rul's ever emerging internal dialogue whose origins Mockra keeps hidden from him) and then once the internal dialogue is recognized, the means of differentiating the magic into specific warrens. K'rul's eternal conversation within allows the magic/his blood, to flow out and then back in again.

The users of magic engage in a form of dialogue in order to access their warrens/make magic manifest. They, like K'rul and the rest of us, do not know the origins that spontaneous flow of internal dialogue, but once it has become concious thought, and applied to the dialogue they must engage in with their warren(s) they make magic appear. Although we may feel the effects of that magic as we are engulfed in fire, the face of the "other" with whom the mage is speaking (himself, via concious thought) remains turned away from us, though it is apparent to the mage himself - because he is aware of what he is thinking.

Mockra recognizes the paradox he is creating when his workings allow both for the spontaneous flow of thought whose origins remain hidden from us, and for the ability to recognize that language of thought when it does appear, when he tells Seren Pedac that there is a need for both "the language of rules" and, as well, "the rules of language."

"The rules of language" are required in order for spontaneous thought to occur, and "the language of rules" are required in order for speech, and our thoughts, to become recognizable - grammar, common useage of words, intelligible utterances, etc.

The "rules of language" when manifest in K'rul's own thought process allow for the existence of magic. "The language of rules" allow that magic to be directed into specific streams. And Mockra sits like a web over all the warrens, all of magic, providing the means for both types of language, while remaining, when necessary, hidden from either the users of that magic - OR - when that magic starts to emerge from the mage using it, those affected by that magic.

Mockra takes Seren Pedac to task for her (previous) thoughts of suicide, telling her that her recurring, emergent thought, her internal dialogue, kept her preoccupied with the event of her rape. He tells her that Corlo, by using his own Mockra magic, helped her stop thinking about that trauma, and that had she not done so she would have killed herself. He tells her this by way of providing her with the answer to his question - "Who is the enemy?" - the answer is - "yourself."

In the event that my theory is correct (and it may well not be) the answer to that question could have terrible ramifications if the progenitor of all magic (K'rul) engaged in that type of despairing musing. I believe Mockra tells Seren Pedac that he (Mockra) is responsible for the fact that K'rul does not, in fact, become consumed by despair, by using his ability to, without K'rul being aware that he is doing so, direct his thoughts elsewhere.

Mockra is not named "Mockra" for nothing.

By the way, the movie "Youth Without Youth" plays with some of these concepts in an interesting way.

OHA

[Excellence]

No. Chaos is what lies inbetween the warrens -- that's been said seldomly from the start. Collectively, they're called the Chaos Warren. K'rul disappeared into it to explore millennia ago, and has only recently returned. He created the warrens out of his own body. That's not public knowledge; even Envy did not know until he told her. He entrusted their, ah, management to certain dragons, who we're told are "flavours" of the warrens.

[Epiph]

Excellence, on Oct 6 2008, 07:09 AM, said:

No. Chaos is what lies inbetween the warrens -- that's been said seldomly from the start. Collectively, they're called the Chaos Warren. K'rul disappeared into it to explore millennia ago, and has only recently returned. He created the warrens out of his own body. That's not public knowledge; even Envy did not know until he told her. He entrusted their, ah, management to certain dragons, who we're told are "flavours" of the warrens.

I thought K'rul disappeared into Chaos because his worship dried up, and resurfaced because his temple was reconsecrated in blood, not because he wanted to explore Chaos and finished up.

This post has been edited by Epiph: 09 October 2008 - 05:58 PM

[Lisheo]

Yeah, once an Elder God or Jaghut dies, they go to Chaos, that was the impression given from GotM, when Raest first meets K'rul.

[Excellence]

Be it as it may, the Chained Dude's aspect is Chaos, and inthe series, within Dragnipur, the real war is between Order and Chaos. K'rul's been gone for millennia, long enough that his return appearances shocks everyone he meets, especially those like Raest who are old enough to consider today's pantheon children to him. K'rul, we're told, went exploring into the Chaos Warren.

This can suggest . . . as the warren maker, he does not own Chaos. That Chaos, like the Chained Dude as he tells Envy in the third book, are strangers to him, and the Dude's unknown origin frightens him.

[D'rek]

Excellence, on Oct 11 2008, 08:05 AM, said:

Be it as it may, the Chained Dude's aspect is Chaos, and inthe series, within Dragnipur, the real war is between Order and Chaos. K'rul's been gone for millennia, long enough that his return appearances shocks everyone he meets, especially those like Raest who are old enough to consider today's pantheon children to him. K'rul, we're told, went exploring into the Chaos Warren.

This can suggest . . . as the warren maker, he does not own Chaos. That Chaos, like the Chained Dude as he tells Envy in the third book, are strangers to him, and the Dude's unknown origin frightens him.

Just because the CG is using Chaos, i wouldn't say he is aspected to it. There's a big difference there. Just about everyone with magic ability seems able to wield chaos to some extent, so it is probable that the CG is using that since whatever his own magic is, he either can't much of it just now, or else he can't pass it on to his followers (because it's still in the Great Ravens?)