[Dancer+]

I meant 'alone' as in apparently alone, with Dancer as his shaved knuckle in the hole/definite rescuer. I'm aware they planned the whole night out basically beforehand.

My main point was Kellanved still needed saving and the claw may or may not have known Cotillion was present. If they knew, either they underestimated his powers or they wanted him to escape.

[Aptorian]

Did Kellanved need saving? Dancer would have been just as hampered by the Ottataral and allthough not as old he wasn't young either.

The problem is, we don't know what happened in the throneroom. If I was to believe the claw version, both Dancer and Kel were mortally wounded before falling off the balcony.

[Illuyankas]

Neither were ascended at the time, Kellanved is 200, he uses a cane, and isn't a badass killing machine assassin fellow. I just want to stress the unascended and 200 years old parts again.

[D'rek]

You know, Topper and Pearl also use some magic, but never really seem like mages. Then when we see Kalam vs hundreds of claws in Malaz City (the first time, in DhG), all the claws do the whole 'emerge from warren into the streets' bit. In fact there's some paragraphs describing the city being pockmarked with tons of little flares of light. Now it seems strange that there would be so many mages in the claw - at least one for every Hand. Then the claws all use small spells to blur their form, blend better with shadows, etc etc.

That would mean the whole claw is made of relatively competent mages. That's waaay too farfetched.
So instead, seems to me that the Claw found a way to 'infuse' its members with a set of standard Claw-approved spells. Whether they have enchanted objects that they carry or humans just all have some intrinsic ability to use a bit of Mockra if trained rigourously enough... in any case, all the Claw have enough magic to affect a mob mentality, blur their image and the Claw Leaders can access the Imperial Warren.

If Surly was head of the Claw, she's have the same 'infused' talents

Ain said:

A funny thing. Stormy used to be an Adjutant. It means the same thing as Adjunct- next to something. Could Adjutant be the male version?

He's often described as "Cartheron Crust's Adjutant Stormy", so I would bet he was second in command to Crust, and thus 2nd in command of one of the four Imperial Fleets

[Silencer]

Well, it is mentioned that the Claw gets and trains its members from a very young age.
It is also mentioned that a lot of people have an innate ability in Mockra. And it wouldn't be that hard to give out lots of enchanted items...
Also, Ocelot in GotM says to Rallick: "If you'd just start using the stuff we give you" in ref to magic-abilities and whatnot.
I think Surly has at least minor magic abilities, if not stuff on the level on any major mage - the Claw also primarily attack Kalam with weapons, not magic (he does have an Otataral long-knife and Tavore has an Otataral sword, but hey - wouldn't they have tried?)
Pearl also mentions that his hand-picked "elite" assassins are all non-mages, making it sound rare for a Claw to not be a mage...

[Optimus Prime]

I always took the Claw as being excellent assassins with a touch of magical ability. I thought they all had magic but mostly to a minor amount of ability...with the standouts being respectable mages.

What does Surly have up her sleeve? Thoughts?

[Dancer+]

Aptorian;253068 said:

Did Kellanved need saving? Dancer would have been just as hampered by the Ottataral and allthough not as old he wasn't young either.

The problem is, we don't know what happened in the throneroom. If I was to believe the claw version, both Dancer and Kel were mortally wounded before falling off the balcony.

And something to the extent of eight or nine claw bodies were on the floor dead. Why would Dancer have been just as hampered?

[Optimus Prime]

His actual assassin skills would not be hampered..he just wouldn't be able to perform the Shadow Dance, right?

[Silencer]

Well, we are assuming on the Shadowdance thing - there is no real proof that Otataral prevents it....but if it didn't, I think everyone would have been dead...

So, what we're saying is that everyone loses their magical abilities, which is actually worse for Kellanved than for anyone else.

[Dancer+]

Yes, to that extent. Kellanved being an old mage is very susceptable to the effects of otataral whilst the younger more lithe claws are more physical and less magic orientated.

I don't think Otataral would stop the Shadow dance.

[Aptorian]

I think one thing should be put straight here. Dancer isn't just an assassin and a shadowdancer. He is a full fledge shadowmage. It was him that ran the shadow cult and you see him use shadow to conceal the body of Tempers girlfriend.

He's probably no where near Kels power, but he is a mage. And I would argue that a lot of Dancers skill is connected to his shadowdance.

[Optimus Prime]

Aptorian;253556 said:

I think one thing should be put straight here. Dancer isn't just an assassin and a shadowdancer. He is a full fledge shadowmage. It was him that ran the shadow cult and you see him use shadow to conceal the body of Tempers girlfriend.

He's probably no where near Kels power, but he is a mage. And I would argue that a lot of Dancers skill is connected to his shadowdance.

I agree that he is a mage. I don't agree that he needs the shadowdance to be a bad ass. Kalam probably knows he can perform this shadowdance...but yet we see how impressed he is by the Rope on a couple occasions. Kalam isn't the type to give credit when the other person is using "helpers" to perform something so amazing..

Dancer, without magic, is probably not much less of a bad ass.

[mob16151]

You know what wouold be sweet kalam comes back and takes out rel and dom then laseen ascends somehow and grub becomes child emperor never happen but it would be kool.

[Dancer+]

Aptorian;253556 said:

I think one thing should be put straight here. Dancer isn't just an assassin and a shadowdancer. He is a full fledge shadowmage. It was him that ran the shadow cult and you see him use shadow to conceal the body of Tempers girlfriend.

He's probably no where near Kels power, but he is a mage. And I would argue that a lot of Dancers skill is connected to his shadowdance.

Thanks for putting this matter in the correct light. My interpretation of all of this is somewhat limited given a) lack of rereads and lack of discussion of these aspects.

So, what this thread suggests is mages are more susceptable to Otataral once they are older and stronger. How powerful do you need to be to go mad to the effects of otataral? Would Dancer and Kellanved both go mad in the Otataral mines without the use of their warrens? I've never had the impression Dancer relies on his warren to any extent.

What exactly is a shadowdance? Another assumption of mine was it was a dance that was done behind curtains, casting only shadows. The effects of such dance I did not quantify. I just assumed the shadowdance improved footwork and fighting abilities at least.

[Optimus Prime]

I would think the older and more learned you are in your magic/warren...the harder it would be to go without it....because over years of life you grow to have a symbiotic tie....

Dancer would be much less effected, I believe.

[Silencer]

A shadowdance in our world is the thing behind the curtains (also what happened to the Temple of Rashan in SC), however, it is really a focusing of abilities to increase speed and kill a hell of a lot of people quickly.....some aspects invoke Rashan, Meanas etc.
I think Dancer doesn't -need- magic, but with it, he becomes almost unbeatable. Hence his calm demeanor and general badassedness.
Look at the scene on Drift Avalii in HoC - Cot doesn't really do a shadowdance, but he's still pretty tough. He does Shadowdance later (although we don't see it) on one of the Edur ships. It's hard to tell how much Dancer relied on his warren, I'd say that Cotillion doesn't rely on it heaps, but with his ascension he now uses it more....

Anyway - On Topic. Laseen doesn't have to die, just step down. Which is unlikely, but still....

[Mentalist]

like I said, step down, reveal hidden enemies, then strike.
Once again, it all depends on how smart she is. tBH makes her look like a moron. Whether that's true or not, i'm not quite sure.

[caladanbrood]

Laseen has been outwardly portrayed to be a bumbling idiot throughout the series. No one is convinced that's true though, are they

[Dancer+]

No one at all is. Laseen can't have been bumbling, not like Pormqual. She's as tough as nails and she knows how to control people.

The Empress will do something we don't expect, there is almost no doubt about that.

[Optimus Prime]

caladanbrood;254769 said:

Laseen has been outwardly portrayed to be a bumbling idiot throughout the series. No one is convinced that's true though, are they

That is probably her greatest strength. She doesn't appear savvy or strong, but she is. Underestimated all her life, she thrives in the underdog role.

I convinced we're going to see her "big move" in RotCG. Can't wait!