[cerveza_fiesta]

Lisheo;247856 said:

If it was done with multiple warrens, it would explain why so many Gods/Ascendants/Mages/priests were needed....
But one thing.... Why would they chain him to Burn? Why not some disused warren like Kaschan, or even Omtose Phellack, which has been referred to as practically dead, or even a KE fragment... Why the Warren of Wu, which is essentialy what the Malaz world is?

I think they chained him to burn because she:

A: is big enough...I mean planet sized
B: I think it was discussed before that CG probably can't be killed, and that is the point of chaining him. If they could kill him you'd think they'd have done so.
C: If he can't be killed (a strong if) then chaining him to a dying warren / hold wouldn't kill him, more likely free him than anything.
D: Perhaps Burn, being the world itself is the only one that can accomodate / tolerate chaining with so many different powers at once.

=====
As a complete aside, Captain planet was a lame cartoon in N.America in the 90's about a superhero who would combine from the powers of 5 chosen teens' power rings (earth fire water air heart) to fight the forces of pollution. Kind of like voltron or power rangers or constructicons or (insert combining robot designed to sell toys)....

[Mentalist]

@Zanth: Burn went to sleep AFTER the chaining--to avoid the pain of the CG's poisoning her. It's discussed in MoI.
As to why Burn... well, the CG kinda did collapse there, with the various pieces of him being embedded in Burn... it was probably simpler then collecting him and moving to a diff. warren/world....
@ CF: before the Holds, there was Wandering (once again, MoI)
@ Urb: the assumption is, the Warrens were created soon following the Sundering of KE (what with the dragons going power-hungry, then rake dealing with them, and "the last flight of the dragons" (GotM)... the Fall occured many-many years later, after the Ritual of T'lan Imass. Kallorian Empire apparently existed arund the same time as the First Empire on 7C....

[pastures]

I'm pretty sure they had only 2 choices - Burn or K'rul (material or magic world). Any other world would be too small or easily dominated by the CG. And they wisely chose Burn. Even though they still affect each other, at least the infection of the warrens will be slower. They need magic/the warrens to combat the CG.

[pastures]

Urb;247839 said:

Ah, well. I don't actually have proof that K'rul is not an elemental, but neither is there any proof that he is (right? quote or it didn't happen).

There are several types of magic. If K'rul was destroyed, only the newer warrens would be gone. There are still the holds, spiritual magic, elder warrens, etc.

Also, I found some further indication that the Crippled Gods wants to remove K'rul.

does anyone remember the quote that says Elder gods are elemental? it's in one of the last two books i'm sure. also, what is the quote that K'rul can't really die?

As far as i can tell, there are only 2 types of magic. K'rul's chaos-shaped magic, and spirit magic. Remember that all K'rul magic stems from Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain, and also that chaos inhabits the space between warrens. Basically K'rul is like chaos embodied, but he shapes that chaos into magical "paths". So Elder magic starts from the heart, aorta, etc, and warren magic is merely the extension of that - the capillaries. Spirit magic on the other hand, uses the power of spirits and seems, at least for now, to be a power unto itself, separate from magic power.

If K'rul was destroyed, warren magic would be gone, true. Elder realms would still exist. But K'rul, being made up of the Elder realms, would still exist (in a comatose sort of way).

[D'rek]

pastures;248147 said:

does anyone remember the quote that says Elder gods are elemental? it's in one of the last two books i'm sure. also, what is the quote that K'rul can't really die?

As far as i can tell, there are only 2 types of magic. K'rul's chaos-shaped magic, and spirit magic. Remember that all K'rul magic stems from Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain, and also that chaos inhabits the space between warrens. Basically K'rul is like chaos embodied, but he shapes that chaos into magical "paths". So Elder magic starts from the heart, aorta, etc, and warren magic is merely the extension of that - the capillaries. Spirit magic on the other hand, uses the power of spirits and seems, at least for now, to be a power unto itself, separate from magic power.

If K'rul was destroyed, warren magic would be gone, true. Elder realms would still exist. But K'rul, being made up of the Elder realms, would still exist (in a comatose sort of way).

rambling time, don't feel the need to read it all...

I think you're pushing the "warrens are made of K'rul's blood" thing a little bit too far... aorta? capillaries? Come on, there's not going to be an exact direct connection between the biological mapping of the circulatory system and the magics. Besides, K'Rul's not human, so he could have a completely different circulatory system with no capillaries, but instead filled with... baguettes.

The K'Rul's blood thing is pseudo-figurative that the modern warrens were created and shaped using K'rul's lifeforce, will, energy, or whatever you want to call it. Yes blood is a good metaphor for it, which is why the warrens in MoI physically manifest the infection as blood (though in reality you don't usually bleed from an infection anyway!).

I believe it is Ganath in BH who, after mentioning to Ganoes the Errant, talks about the progression of magic into more and more ordered stages, or rather, less and less primitive stages. The earliest "ascendents" could be bound by mortals just by having their names known (an example of which we see in RG), while the gods of the Holds were controlled by sacrifices and apropriations, and then after that we have the gods of the modern warrens and houses who are mostly bound by mass worship. She then goes on about unworshippeds being free and blah blah blah.

(Where was I going with this again?)

Thus, there are far more than 2 types of magic, there are most probably much more than just those 3 (primitive/wandering, holds, houses). I would bet that there are no particular classifications, but that there is a very inspecific scale along which magical "types" range from the most primitive cave-painting-based magic to the jumbo-condominium magic. (could the scale on which these things are measured be from chaos to order and everything in between?!).

My general gist of it, is that following the sundering of KE (an elder warren, therefore somewhere beyond holds but not at the same anti-primitivism of the human warrens), K'rul helped push the progression by making all the modern warrens using the power of the true-blooded eleint. Now, notice how as you progress from wandering towards the modern high houses, everything seems to get nice and orderly? Thus K'rul is certainly not chaos-aspected, he is much more like a bringer of order and stability.

Now, K'rul was around long before he made the modern warrens out of his 'blood'. There were other warrens around before him as well, and before them there were holds, and before that there was wandering. If K'rul were to die, it would just be the end of the modern warrens, which for the most part would greatly hamper the human use of magic. But not all magic would die or anything so significant... the general magic trend would just make a big backwards step and things would get a bit messier, until some other super-somebody comes along and decides to order-ify all of magic some more...

[Mentalist]

While i largely agree with what Skir said, I feel I gottal add this
Imho, if the warrens get destroyed, nothing major will happen. sure, humans, moranth, etch will lose their power. but the Magic itself wouldn't go anywhere. It would just become more...fluid again.
The entire poit for shaping the warrens, imho was to LIMIT the amount of power one could use, and thus forcing its use to become more refined. Elder Hold magic involves wast quantities of power that get wielded this way and that, killing, maiming and scorching thousands. perhaps K'rul felt that limiting the amount of power one can unleash at the same time would lessen the chance of something like KE happening again? maybe that's why the warrens drain the user the more he keeps his warren open..

[pastures]

Basically i was trying to say that it just branches out form major arteries/veins to minor arteries/veins (capillaries). That is, the human warrens simply stem from the Elder warrens. That is why they are less brute force, but much better at refined/smaller (but not necessarily weaker)/advanced stuff. I am of the view that if the Elder warrens were to disappear, the human warrens would disappear too.

skir, you seem to be talking about something different to magic. I am talking about magic POWER. That is, the power comes from either chaos (shaped into warren magic, or just pure chaos) or from spirits. What you are talking about is how that magic power is used, and also how gods are controlled by their followers (a different sort of "magic" that's not really magic).

Holds and Houses are merely the classification of major and minor arteries/veins, if you will. The term warren is just the general term artery/vein.

I believe the conservation of energy applies here. So i agree with kud that the power will still be there regardless of whether or not a warren is created or destroyed. It's all shaped from the same formless energy - chaos.

[Mentalist]

I diasagree, pastures. Elder warrens are essentially other worlds in themselves--self-contained worlds, that were inhabited by other species. (see my thread "Thinking about warrens" a while back).
Whereas for the new warrens, some follow that rule, some don't., serving more of a "reservoir" of power. They are unconnected to the Elder warrens.
Houses/Holds are imho more related to the BEINGS of power, rather than power itself. There exists some overlap with warrens, but it is not an exact match (There's no House or the warrens of Driss, or Ruse, for example)
Destroying the Elder warrens will affect the power of those species that draw power from them--Tiste, Jaghut, T'lan Imass.. but it would not do anything to the newer warrens themselves.

[pastures]

Elder warrens are self contained worlds because they are larger. Human warrens tend to be smaller and hence less world-ish.

I'm pretty sure there's multiple quotes to the effect that human warrens stem from Elder warrens.

Of course, if what i've just said isn't true, then you are probably right.

I take your point about the Holds/Houses. Yes. They are merely a collection of beings aligned to a particular cause, but not necessarily having the same warren (although their warren may well shape their cause).

[Aptorian]

Some things that are being misunderstood.

Holds are not stronger or more powerfull than warrens. They are more raw and wild, but not stronger, the only reason to why the holds seem more powerfull is that we've mainly seen it used in rituals.

The Holds like the Houses is most likley a creation. Maybe they came from the Azaths, maybe some god made the holds, but they are a system. That's why there was tiles and thrones, etc back in the elder times aswell.

We don't know that every human accessable warren doesn't have a throne.. or does for that matter. We also don't know if every warren is a world or not. For example I've never heard someone say that the planes of the mind couldn't be the warren of Mocra. Hell for all we know Mocra is located in K'rulls head.

And if Burn dies all magic does die with her. The crippled gods poison will run freely into every warren through K'rulls veins and eventually even the holds will succumb. Spiritmagic etc. dies aswell since these forms are connected to earth and spirits.

[pastures]

Agree with all your major points Apt. Except maybe you're confusing Holds/Houses with Elder/human warrens...

I agree they are simply an advancement of the system.

[Raraku]

Only until RG were people on Letheras able to use warren magic rite. So basically every1 was using the Holds but i n the RG prologue, Gothos uses the WARREN of OP to do his ritual.
Maybe the racial warrens might survive the death of Krull.
Also i dont really think u can kill Krull cause Tiam is also considered an Elder Goddess and she came back to life even after Rake and Ruin and a bunch of others drank her blood. although if the CG is elemental then he may find a way to do it.

[Optimus Prime]

Now that is a scene I want to see...the drinking of Tiam's blood....*drools* come on SE....read my mind!

[Mentalist]

@ Raraku: well, the thing about Racial warrens is... they're ELDER
and we are told in tBH that K'rul had nothing to do with their creation--they aren't his blood.
As for Tiam--she was one of the first Dragons, maybe the Mother of all dragons, but we really don't know what happened to her, and "drinking her blood" does not necessarily entitle her to being dead... I mean, it sure sounds like she should be dead, but you never know...

[Aptorian]

I don't think you can compare Tiam to Elder Gods. It is said that Tiam is kin to Draconus but we've never heard the word god used about Tiam. She's been called matron though.

And EGs can be killed, at least they can if they take on a mortal form like Nightchill did, they just don't go to hoods warren. They go into Chaos I think, where they come from.

[pastures]

kud: i have to slightly disagree with your statement. The blood in Krul's heart is made of Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain - both Elder warrens. i dont know the quote, but if u have it, it might clear this up (for me, in any case).

[Skywalker]

MOI, on near the end of Ch 7, said:

Visions flooded her mind, staggering her. Darkness. Then chaos, wild, unfocused power, a universe devoid of sense, of control, of meaning. Entities flung through the maelstrom. Lost, terrified by the birth of light. A sudden sharpening pain as of wrists opened, the heat spilling forth—a savage imposition of order, the heart from which blood flowed in even, steady streams. Twin chambers to that heart — Kurald Galain, the Warren of Mother Dark — and Starvald Demelain, the Warren of… Dragons.

And the blood — the power — now sweeping in currents through veins, through arteries, branching out through all existence, and the thought that came to her then stole all warmth from her flesh. Those veins, those arteries, they are the warrens. "Who created this? Who?"

"Dear Lady", K'rul replied, "you have your answer, and I will be damned if I am going to countenance your impertinence. You are a sorceress. By Light's Wild Mane, your power feeds on the very blood of my eternal soul, and I will have your obedience in this!"

There you go!

EDIT: K'rul's heart IS Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain... makes you wonder where Kurald Thyrllan and Emurlahn fit into his anatomy

[Raraku]

i m quite sure that Tiam is alive cause when the Rope is talking to the 3 chained dragons in BH, 1 of them says that unlike Tiam we stay dead once we r killed or something along those lines

[Aptorian]

Ah but now you touch upon one of the mysteries.

I think it is from Feather Witches readings, but at some time it is stated that Tiam is dead, maybe never to rise again. Meaning, something happened the last time she died.

Even more confusing, we don't know why she dies and returns time and time again. Is it when she gives birth? Is she shackled some where like a cow and when ascendants need some draconean soletaken blood they skullcap her and grab a pint?

Perhaps Tiams predicament is related to a chaining, perhaps she is hanging from a cross... we just don't know.

[Mentalist]

Skywalker;249769 said:

There you go!

EDIT: K'rul's heart IS Kurald Galain and Starvald Demelain... makes you wonder where Kurald Thyrllan and Emurlahn fit into his anatomy

well, the thing about Heart is.. it's not made of blood.
I never said that Elder warrens weren't connectd to K'rul--in fact, my pet theory is, K'rul used the power of SD to shape the other warrens, which is why SD is so dead-like right now.
But the fact that it's his "heart" doesn't mean that he created it--simply that he's using it.