[Cougar]

I love how Paran's denial of his ascendant/MotD status (master of the deck not Match of the Day, god I'd love to see Shadowhound Paran rip out Mark Lawrensons throat...sorry, drifted off) is parralleled in this thread by Apt's refusal to face facts.

I've a question about the Errant regarding his godhood, there seems to be some rather confusing information on him.

From the interpretation of the creation of the holds I assumed he was simply the human form of the force called the Errant which exists prior to the holds, representing balance:

Quote

'The Errant would then weave its mysterious skein, forging the Holds themselves' (MT UKTpb. p.31)

this seems confirmed by Bugg talking about the tombs under Lether:

Quote

'The language on the door belongs to an extinct people known as Forkrul Assail, who are collectively personified in our Fulcra by the personage we call the Errant.' (MT UKTpb, p.327)

You'd assume Bugg is right since he is Mael.

What confuses me is this would contradict the idea that Paran would become a version of the Errant, since there is no comparision between an ancient force which formed worlds, and a grumpy chap who won't accept godhood.

[Aptorian]

Interesting topic.

We assume the Errant ascended and took on an aspect similar to Oponns. Perhaps in a more powerfull form back in the day.

But what if the Errant achived what ST and Cotillion strive after. The Errant became an elemental force already in existance but with no Elder God to be its avatar.

Would explain why Mael hasn't killed the Errant outright.

[cerveza_fiesta]

@DM

That's exactly what made me think he was for sure ascendant. As though he were suddenly untouched by regular world things like disease.

@ch'arlz

I doubt he'd be questioning ascendancy's meaning if he didn't already thin he was ascendant.

[cerveza_fiesta]

@apt,

can you clarify?

[Aptorian]

Cerveza - I'm sorry what of the above do you mean?

Cougar was wondering about the Letheri creation myth inwhich the Errant figurs. The Errant we know is a mortal man that ascended (Do we have actual confirmation he was originally human?). So I suggested that there in the oldest times was an Elemental force called the Errant. Like Darkness or Water there was the Errant element, somekind of driving force, faith? Destiny? The manifestation of purpose on things? Perhaps then The mortal person that became the Errant assumed the aspect of this element.

Or were you refering to ST and Cotillion? We know they are interested in the Azaths. That's the whole reason they chose to ascend. They need more than a mortal lifespan to explore and quantify the many azaths across realms and dimensions. The Shadow Realm is just a means to an end for them.

[ch'arlz]

cerveza_fiesta;231030 said:

I doubt he'd be questioning ascendancy's meaning if he didn't already thin he was ascendant.

I can't follow your logic here. I believe that when he says he doesn't know what ascendancy is, he also says that he doesn't notice anything different.

[Flawed]

ch said:

I can't follow your logic here. I believe that when he says he doesn't know what ascendancy is, he also says that he doesn't notice anything different.

Perhaps he was drunk?

[ch'arlz]

Flawed;231049 said:

Perhaps he was drunk?

It's kind of early in the day for that!

[Flawed]

ch said:

It's kind of early in the day for that!

Maybe where you are

I should be at least partially anebriated by now

[Cougar]

Aptorian;231040 said:

Cerveza - I'm sorry what of the above do you mean?

Cougar was wondering about the Letheri creation myth inwhich the Errant figures. The Errant we know is a mortal man that ascended (Do we have actual confirmation he was originally human?).

I don't recall any confirmation that he was a mortal at any stage??

In my mind the Errant in the creation myth is a force which draws Dolmen (Earth/Matter?? I only say this as it seems related to Obelisk/Burn as a card in the readings when it is described as a lifeless rock jutting from the earth) and Fire (Energy/Life??) into conflict creating relams or worlds, but in most cases causing mutual anihilation. Subsequently the Errant forms the holds.

If the Errant was a role (like King of HHDeath or something) that could be assumed by anyone then I wouldn't have a problem, ie: you asssume the mantle of the Errant and assume a certain set of powers -fine.

What's funking me out though is the passage about the Forkrul Assail, are they the personification of the role of the Errant as they attempt to bring balance through conflict as the Errant does with fire and dolmen? If they are then has the current Errant usurped the power?

I just don't understand !!!

[cerveza_fiesta]

@Apt...I was getting at the Errant origins thing. You made it more clear. Thanks.

@ch'arlz

What I was getting at is the reason for his questioning his ascendancy. He admits that he doesn't need to worry about the disease, so on some level, he must have figured out that he has ascended for him to be immune. The fact that he's questioning what he's become gives me the impression that Paran realizes something's changed even though he "feels" the same.

I guess it doesn't point directly to ascendancy, but I think its pretty stongly implied. Apt's doubts are valid for sure, but it makes sense that he'd need to be ascendant now to be mucking with the deck and the pantheon the way he does.

Another point to consider is Quick ben. He fncks with the gods pretty bad as well, but as far as we know is not ascendant. I think his influence is more subtle though...he influences through trickery and clever deals. Paran has direct power over the pantheon and (as we've seen) shark-bear-scaley things and pannion buzzards.

[Obdigore]

cerveza_fiesta;231083 said:

What I was getting at is the reason for his questioning his ascendancy. He admits that he doesn't need to worry about the disease, so he must on some level have figured out that he's ascended for him to be immune. The fact that he's questioning what he's become gives the idea that Paran realizes something's changed even though he "feels" the same.

I guess it doesn't point directly to ascendancy, but I think its pretty stongly implied. Apt's doubts are valid for sure, but it makes sense that he'd need to be ascendant now to be mucking with the deck and the pantheon the way he does.

Strongly implied yes.

Proof he is an ascendant? No.

Perhaps the deck does not want the mortal it selected as 'master' to die from a severe cold. Does that them make him an ascendant? What, really, does being an ascendant entail?

More personal power, right? Does Ganoes have personal power, or are his powers granted him through the deck, meaning that he is possibly not ascended, he just has a really cool gadget at his beck and call?

[cerveza_fiesta]

Obdigore;231087 said:

Strongly implied yes.

Proof he is an ascendant? No.

Perhaps the deck does not want the mortal it selected as 'master' to die from a severe cold. Does that them make him an ascendant? What, really, does being an ascendant entail?

More personal power, right? Does Ganoes have personal power, or are his powers granted him through the deck, meaning that he is possibly not ascended, he just has a really cool gadget at his beck and call?

I'd say no on the gadget theory. It woudl be like Bob the guardian calling on glitch in the show Reboot.


I think the deck does grant him powers, but it seems like he's a permanent selection, not someone the deck (if it indeed has a consciousness) could replace at a moment's notice. SE's pointed to parallels between Paran and the Errant in RG in the scene where the Errant is all pissy because there's a new master for the new house-warrens about to replace him the way the houses are replacing the holds. The errant obviously sees him as a threat, and I don't think he would think that way if Paran were just some piddly mortal with a cool gadget.

As for ascended or not arguments, there's no real definition or clear line of "crossing over". We know rake and brood are ascendants because its explicitly said in the books...not because of knowledge of their deeds. If we didn't know that rake was ascendant due to explicit mention in the books, we could have the same argument about him, brood, dassem, cotillon, shadowthrone, etc etc.

IMO its one of those "shoe fits" situations, where most evidence points to paran being ascendant, so that's what I'm going to accept. so there
nyaaaah:p

EDIT...just thought about a counter argument to my above statement about the gadget. The sappers are piddly mortals with cool gadgets (moranth munitions) and RG proved that gods and ascendants both should fear those little fnckers and watch out or they'll get a-sploded. So I change my no to a maybe.

[Obdigore]

Thats fine, I actually think he is ascended too.

The issue is, there is no proof. When Ganoes and Hotness-Apsalar were talking, she mentioned that being ascended relates to having a large amount of personal power. Does Ganoes have 'personal power', or is it 'granted' to him from an outside source (IE, the widespread deck of the dragons.)

[cerveza_fiesta]

or is it the same thing. Would Rake be ascendant without dragnipur, or brood without the hammer? The weapon of choice obviously makes those guys more powerful...but is it the key to their ascendancy?

Ok, bad example...comparing Rake to Paran right now is like comparing Hitler to a one-time petty thief but I wonder if the granted power (and I'm pretty sure it was granted) really is attuned to him and is now his power.

[Skywalker]

cerveza_fiesta;231103 said:

Ok, bad example...comparing Rake to Paran right now is like comparing Hitler to a one-time petty thief

Or is it? Paran is definitely playing at the grown-ups table now. For all the awesomeness Rake commands, it is Paran who has the position of MoTD.

Paran's power is a different brand - it isn't the "I will kick your ass all over the ballpark" kind. Paran is the one who enforces rule, works toward balance, sanctions the HoC, etc. He is the ultimate peacekeeper.

I'd say comparing Rake to Paran is like comparing Hitler to the ideal Secretary General of the UN (in an ideal world, the UN would have some balls)!

[Aptorian]

*looks over the shoulder to see if Hetan is watching*

Where does George Bush fit into all this then? Is it Laseen Walker Bush?

[cerveza_fiesta]

consider a can of worms opened.

Bush is the errant....nearing the end of his term and doing anything to win back favor of the masses.

[Skywalker]

cerveza_fiesta;231128 said:

consider a can of worms opened.

Bush is the errant....nearing the end of his term and doing anything to win back favor of the masses.

Actually Bush/ Cheney are like Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom... spinning away on the spin machines...

(ducks out of sight).

[Urko]

thx all for your insights but i hav one more point to add... The Bridgeburners have Ascended... now i know Paren was only new to to the squad but Whiskeyjack himself acknowledged that Paren was a Bridgeburner, that being said!!! Ascention for Paren also? YES