[Kalahinen]

So,
after seven books by Erikson, can we say that the Claw is an efficient organization?
Let's think about it: have the Claw assassins actually performed any succesful missions in the novels?

Every time we have read about them, they have been slaughtered as sheep, very much like NINJAS in 80s movies. So, everyone thinks that NINJAS are tough guys, but then they get shot by some punk (like in so many Ninja -classics). The same seems to be true with the Claw, as well.

[Skywalker]

Well Pearl did manage to track down Tavore's sister in HoC and he was pretty awesome against the Semk godling in DG...

Pearl also did his part well in ambushing Kalam and leaving him for his colleagues to finish.

But other than that, yeah... its been one botch up after another...

[q21]

I think part of the reason for this is that when we see the claw they are usually facing up against some of the sacriest characters - especially Kalam, who knows all their tricks and does most of them better.

They are probably very good at your average, run off the mill political assassinations and such like.

[Vengeance]

Yeah we have usually only seen the claw in straight up fights...Or close enough to that it amounts to the same thing....I do believe that it is touched up on at the end of BH how in a straight up fight usually a soldier will win. The Claw is good at going in before a seige and taking out the oppositions leadership and mages...Aka Gardens of the Moon...

[Kalahinen]

Or their primary function might be just to work as an intimidating faction in the imperial policy, the threath. Actual sweeping is secondary, and so secondary-handled...

[Kalahinen]

Vengeance;229806 said:

The Claw is good at going in before a seige and taking out the oppositions leadership and mages...Aka Gardens of the Moon...

Yes, we saw how well the Claw managed in GotM, Rake killed them (or had them killed) when they were ten paces inside the city! But just the fear of the Claw made the powerful mages of Pale run for their lives. So, read my previous post.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Remember Topper's words in GotM. He said he had killed the entire royal family of Unta (I think it was Unta) to the most distant relation, and Paran had heard it before. Don't know if they were hard targets, but let's assume they were.

I think the Claw's main thing is covert operations - assassinations and things like that. They're not so good at open street warfare, something Kalam has made a hobby of proving.

Oh, and more clear proof? The Claw provided Laseen's springboard to the Malaz throne. If they were a worthless organisation, she wouldn't have been able to usurp Dancer & Kellanved, devastate the Talon and assume undisputed control even though a regicide.

[ch'arlz]

Dolorous Menhir;229853 said:

I think the Claw's main thing is covert operations - assassinations and things like that. They're not so good at open street warfare, something Kalam has made a hobby of proving.

They've got the tactics for effective street fighting, except that Kalam knows them as well or better and he's the best of the bunch.

[D'rek]

A thought: perhaps the Claw is better at assassinations but not so much at urban street fighting (like what we see in BH), while the Talon was better as covert street attackers but not as good at assassination?

[Fiddler]

I would think that the Claw, according to Heboric's comments in DG, were more suited to intimidation and terrorizing people as a sort of secret police internal to the empire. The Talon were reputedly the Military arm created by Dancer, probably best at long term goals, assassinations, and gathering military intel. The origins of these organizations have colored peoples perceptions of them in the books, in these latter days of the empire the average run of the mill joe could and would easily confuse the earlier exploits of the Talon as those of the claw, after all, not even the name of the Talons was widely known. anyways, me 2 cents on this one.

[Masonity]

You also have to remember, the key claw members haven't really been bested on screen. Sure Pearl got it, but he was taken out by another major player. The multitude of claws Khalam has taken out were sent as sacraficial lambs, as a way of "cleaning house" and weeding out the weak, remember.

So, one of the greatest claws ever, now a former claw, takes down a shitload of poor claws. Hardly shows the organisation as unefficient, does it?

Also, for an unefficient organisation, they didn't do too badly... The true claw master sits on the Malaz Throne.

[kaf09]

Masonity;230055 said:

You also have to remember, the key claw members haven't really been bested on screen. Sure Pearl got it, but he was taken out by another major player. The multitude of claws Khalam has taken out were sent as sacraficial lambs, as a way of "cleaning house" and weeding out the weak, remember.

So, one of the greatest claws ever, now a former claw, takes down a shitload of poor claws. Hardly shows the organisation as unefficient, does it?

Also, for an unefficient organisation, they didn't do too badly... The true claw master sits on the Malaz Throne.

Actually the true clawmaster is either Mallick Rel or Pormqual. We know that the Claw have been infiltrated; and with Pearl's death it is likely to remain that way. One thing that struck me throughout the novels was the ineffectiveness of the Claw. They were easily dealt with at Pale (mind you by Rake and his mages), they were disastrously impotent in 7 cities, and now their organization has been turned from within. And Lasseen is aware of this as much as anyone.

[Fiddler]

Pormqual? uhh he's dead isn't he? maybe you meant Korbolo Dom? The Claw were probably a lot more powerful in Kellanved's age due to combined arms tactics, claw and mages working together with the Talons. but anyhoo.

[Mentalist]

hmmm minor NoK spoiler follows

Spoiler

prior to Dassem's death, the top 6 Claws were:
Surly
Topper
Kalam (with bridgeburners)
Possum
Pearl
Jade
and Dancer was better then all of them

now, Jade and Possum die during NoK, Surly becomes Laseen, and we never see Topper fight
so, out of the rest, Kalam is top one, and he's the one generally doing the Clawslaying. Apsalar > Dancer, hence she also rules.
This says nothing about how good the other claws are, just that they constantly face their better in MBotF. This does not, in any way, make them powerless

[Aptorian]

It is a bit silly to believe that no clawmasters has emerged in the 10 years since Laseen made her coop. They are out there, they just have other shit to do.

I'll admit that the Claws have taken some beatings during the last couple of books, but I don't understand why people think so little of them. They are supposed to be used as a instrument of fear, unknown, unseen agents of the empress in all cities and armies. While competent Fists control the Empires provinces the Claw are always there to keep the Fists in line.

The scenes we've seen them get their ass kicked in are all special. Dancer is the best fighter we know, Apsalar is a carbon copy of the Patron of Assassins, Kalam is cartoon ninja bear apparently in possesion of superhuman strength and speed. In the last fight Kalam even had an ottataral knife which hamper the magic wielding Claws edge.

I'd actually like to see an ICE novel that focused on the internal structure of the Claw, perhaps centered around their war with the Talon.

[Fiddler]

Aptorian;232573 said:

Kalam is cartoon ninja bear apparently in possesion of superhuman strength and speed.

Thats about the best description of Kalam I've heard yet, mind if I borrow it?

Aptorian;232573 said:

I'd actually like to see an ICE novel that focused on the internal structure of the Claw, perhaps centered around their war with the Talon.

That would totally rock, lots of doomed last stands by single Talon agents against hands of the Claw, oh yeah, lots-o-deadpeople.

[MegaLeafs]

Didn't the claws get pretty much wiped out by Aspalar at the end of tBH's? I seem to remember a bit of conversation between Cot and Asp on Malaz where he comments on her nights work of dispatching a few hundred Claws?

[Mentalist]

Laseen only brought 600 or so with her. I'm sure that if she could spare that many, the number of the ones that are spread throughout the Empire largely exceeds the one that we've seen...
on the other hand, since the Claw became so big, maybe that's the reason why their efficiency dropped so much...

[MegaLeafs]

Good call. You never really know the Malazan's numbers claw marines or otherwise.

So why then did Cot want Asp on the hunt that night?

A diversion for Tavore's escape?
Personal Vengence?

It seems to me that Laseen's resources are getting bled out pretty bad. Could that be it are they setting her up for something?

Love how Erikson drops things like oh ya and Aspalar just killed a few hundred Claws in the meantime.

[Mentalist]

Cotillion wanted Pearl. He was the last on Apasalar's "to kill" list. She even said so.
Her killing all the Claw had more to do with her wanting to help out kalam and Tavore, imho