[Dancer+]

He was ascended at the chaining almost most definitely - at least if it says Dessembrae.

The chaining couldn't of been after the fall of Dassem Ultor at Y'Ghatan, otherwise it would kind of unhinge the perception of whether DU was dead or not, unless all of the ascendants knew he wasn't dead.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Just reread that passage. Kruppe read's that Hood's man, Dessembrae was present at "the" Chaining, and at that event he broke his bonds with Hood. This was before the death of Dessembrae. That passage is the first certain proof that Dassem Ultor is Dessembrae.

[Wampyry]

Herewith quote from GOTM, pg 274, US

GM-274 Kruppe reading Mommots journals: …And upon this barren plain that imprisoned the Crippled God, many gathered to the deed: Hood, gray wonderer of
Death. As was Dessembrae, then Hood's Warrior - though it was here and in this time
That Dessembrae shatted the bonds Hood held upon him.

DG-600 Looking at Dassem's comatose daughter within Tremolor:

Apsalar/Dancer is talking to Fiddler about Dassem daughter: "This is Dassem Ultor's
daughter. THe First Sword recovered her after hood was done using her, and brought her here, it seems-"
"Before breaking his vow to Hood?"
"Aye, before Dassem cursed the god he once served."

Confusing, Huh?

[Zanth13]

just realized that the fact that envy mentioned Dassem Ultor in a manner of respect and stated that his loss was a blow to to the world says allot about his power. He commands the respect of powerful ascendants plus he is known by everyone weak and powerful, he is a legend, which is enough to make him ascend.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Wampyry;238374 said:

Herewith quote from GOTM, pg 274, US

GM-274 Kruppe reading Mommots journals: …And upon this barren plain that imprisoned the Crippled God, many gathered to the deed: Hood, gray wonderer of
Death. As was Dessembrae, then Hood's Warrior - though it was here and in this time
That Dessembrae shatted the bonds Hood held upon him.

DG-600 Looking at Dassem's comatose daughter within Tremolor:

Apsalar/Dancer is talking to Fiddler about Dassem daughter: "This is Dassem Ultor's
daughter. THe First Sword recovered her after hood was done using her, and brought her here, it seems-"
"Before breaking his vow to Hood?"
"Aye, before Dassem cursed the god he once served."

Confusing, Huh?

There's nothing confusing in there.

Hood has Dassem's daughter, and used her for some unclear purpose before or during the Chaining. Dassem took her back before or during the Chaining, and then or soon after cut his links with Hood - i.e. he was no longer the Knight of Death. The phrasing leaves the precise intervals unclear, but that's the essence of it.

I like the fact that the first passage proves Dassem Ultor is Dessembrae, and did so all the way back in GotM.

[Wampyry]

I still think there is a problem with the sequance of events.

GOTM states the Dessambrae shattered the links with Hood at the chaining

DG states that Dassem brought his daughter to Tremolor and then broke his vow to Hood

What actually happened? Dassem took his daughter to Tremolor then went back to the chaining and quit?

Moot point to be sure especially since GOTM is involved

[Zanth13]

Wampyry;238450 said:

I still think there is a problem with the sequance of events.

GOTM states the Dessambrae shattered the links with Hood at the chaining

DG states that Dassem brought his daughter to Tremolor and then broke his vow to Hood

What actually happened? Dassem took his daughter to Tremolor then went back to the chaining and quit?

Moot point to be sure especially since GOTM is involved

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

[Wampyry]

Interview with SE:Q&A Malazam Empire 1, 2003

Erikson is asked a question about Dessembrae. His answer: The CULT sees their god
as a man, but his grief as female.

Note: Erikson WAS NOT asked about Kruppe's readings he offered the following correction on his own. Now why would he do that unless there was a problem with Kruppe reading as presented?

"A few more things ... there was more than one chaining of the crippled god. The account that Kruppe reads has merged all of them into on"

This explains the contradiction beween the two quotes. Now, I have faith

[Wampyry]

Herewith another quote to further muddy the waters surrounding Dassem/
Dessembrae:

Envy talking to Krul right after the "Dassem Ultor First Sword reborn-" comment. "Do you think that Hood would have taken her for the Chaining, had
I answered the summons?" Krul, "Hood alone could answer that question, Lady
Envy, and he'd likely lie. In any case, Dassem, his Champion - Dessembrae - had grown to rival his power" SE doesn't make it easy

Zanth13. You can now respond with your condescending Vader quip. This time I am confused

[D'rek]

Allow me to try and make the parts of the event feasible:

The chaining probably took a while and had several "phases". For example,
Phase 1: is neutralizing the CG and holding him in place. Let's say Rake, Brood, DU and the other tough guys were doing this.
Phase 2: Opening a magical link to Burn. Let's say this requires a female sacrifice. Everyone turns to Hood and he pulls away the white sheet revealing (gasp!) Dassem's daughter! A magical dagger is pushed into her by Nightchill or some such.
Phase 3: The CG and Burn are now connected. Grizzin Farl goes to work forging the chains that will hold the CG to Burn. This takes a while. Dassem is totally pissed and at this time takes his daughter's body and hauls it into an Azath.
Phase 4: Grizzin is done and everyne stands back and exchanges high fives. Punch is served. Then as a total downer on the party, Dassem comes storming back in and tells Hood they're through! Hood replies that he's kicking Dassem out of the House. They argue about who gets to keep the plasma TV. Dancer volunteers as legal council. Everyone goes home really wasted, saying "see you at the next chaining!" and "Where the heck is Draconus anyway?" (Rake does the shifty-eyes thing)


anything seem any clearer now?

[Wampyry]

Skir, yep, that explains it - thanks

[pastures]

skir;247553 said:

Allow me to try and make the parts of the event feasible:

The chaining probably took a while and had several "phases". For example,
Phase 1: is neutralizing the CG and holding him in place. Let's say Rake, Brood, DU and the other tough guys were doing this.
Phase 2: Opening a magical link to Burn. Let's say this requires a female sacrifice. Everyone turns to Hood and he pulls away the white sheet revealing (gasp!) Dassem's daughter! A magical dagger is pushed into her by Nightchill or some such.
Phase 3: The CG and Burn are now connected. Grizzin Farl goes to work forging the chains that will hold the CG to Burn. This takes a while. Dassem is totally pissed and at this time takes his daughter's body and hauls it into an Azath.
Phase 4: Grizzin is done and everyne stands back and exchanges high fives. Punch is served. Then as a total downer on the party, Dassem comes storming back in and tells Hood they're through! Hood replies that he's kicking Dassem out of the House. They argue about who gets to keep the plasma TV. Dancer volunteers as legal council. Everyone goes home really wasted, saying "see you at the next chaining!" and "Where the heck is Draconus anyway?" (Rake does the shifty-eyes thing)


anything seem any clearer now?

Nicely done, skir. Have rep.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Dolorous Menhir;216392 said:

I'm convinced he was Dessembrae before his death, .

Nope he became Dessembrae AFTER his death.At least that' s what I understand from Fiddler' s thoughts

______________________________

Quote

You can't be serious!
Death is always serious.

Paran and Hood

Quote

This rain will make the sea rise, yes?

Mallick Rel to Pearl

[Dolorous Menhir]

Spoiler

The cult of Dessembrae had followers among the Malazan military before the death of Dassem Ultor.

One of the reasons Hood and Ultor fell out is because Ultor's power was growing to rival Hood's. How? Because Ultor was Dessembrae, Lord of Tears.

He was Dessembrae before his supposed death.

Edit - I put the above behind spoiler tags, because although it doesn't give away storyline material, it's something I understand from post-MoI books.

[The Dark Wanderer]

I cann't remember which book this info comes from (and I suspect it may be many) so

Spoiler

Hood and Ultor fell out mainly because Hood stole/took/kidnapped Dassem's daughter (still unnamed and it's beginning to annoy me). I thought Dassem became Dessembrae because of this and surely that means that somehow Dassem managed to survive as First Sword of the Empire while still holding a personal vendetta against Hood which shows just how impressive the guy must be.

If someone can remember where that all came from I can remove part of it from spoiler tags.

edit; if I'd managed to put it in them to begin with. Duh!

[Silander]

Hmm ok sorry for going off Topic...
@Sinisdar -
Where did you get the quote (is it in fact a a quote?) from?
I like it.

[BeLeG]

question:
the comment about Dassem being the "first sword reborn" makes me wonder

maybe it means he was the first sword of the first human empire(empire of Dessimbelackis)?Maybe he ascended during that time as Knight of Death and his real name was Dessembrae?The first chaining took place around that time right?(The empire of Dessimbelackis existed when the CG was brought down.)
So Dassem could have broken the ties with Hood during the very first chaining after Hood took his daughter...?

then he is somehow "reborn" as the first sword of the Malazan Empire as "Dassem Ultor"?

[D'rek]

All hail BeLeG, mighty thread-necromancer of the forums! Man, I was still going by Skir back when we had this convo. Awesomesauce.

While we can't say for sure, we're pretty certain Dassem was a mortal man at the time of the founding of the Malazan empire, which is more or less a century before GotM (unless you're one of those fools trying futely to make a working timeline by making the empire much older). The First Sword Reborn thing is probably more of a dealio of there not having been an Empire in QT/7C large enough to have a real First Sword, so now that there is one, and he's nigh-unkillable, people start thinking he's mythological and think he's the first sword from one of the First Empires "reborn".

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Nothing wrong with some thread necromancy, if he wasn't here for when the conversation was going the first time.

[D'rek]

I'm not disparaging it, thread-necromancy is a fine thing, and so far BeLeG has shown good taste as to reviving threads that are discussion worthy and not reviving threads that are 101% completed. I just felt like entitling him.