[Banana]

This is kind of an embarassing question since I've read all the books twice. But I forgot my second time through to pay attention and take particular note of the MD and Tiam references. My first time reading through I thought MotherDark and Tiam were the same person and that Tiam was pretty much just MD's other name but after reading some posts on here it seems that they're not the same person????

Anyway, if anyone could clarify this for me I'd be much obliged.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Tiam seems to be the first dragon, and source of all the Draconean Eleint.

Mother Dark is the creator of (at least) the Tiste races, and possibly all the known intelligent races. Strong hints in RG she produced the KCCM before the Tiste Andii.

I think MD & Tiam are definitely distinct. From the Tiste Edur legends of MT (always taken with a pinch of salt), MD appears to be a sentient black hole. Even if that was mistaken, or a metaphor or other non-literal description, it is not consistent with the implied description of Tiam as simply the first dragon.

Remember Olar Ethil's comment that, when in her Soletaken form, she is "an undead twin to Tiam" - so Tiam is definitely a literal dragon. There has been no suggestion that MD is a dragon, but it is quite possible that Tiam herself is another spawn of MD. I wouldn't be surprised if that was so, as Mother Dark and Father Light are definitely the ultimate creation gods in this series. Tiam doesn't have quite that stature.

[caladanbrood]

Yup, I saw these two as the same being. They're both creation myths, of a sort - Tiam for elient and MD for the Tiste.

Hard to say though. we've had nothing definite.

[Banana]

ahhh what you say makes some sense but doesn't really confirm it for me.

I mean what's with the draconeon blood in Rake, Ruin and Darist then? And also Scabby too I guess. Everytime the series mentions a character having drank the blood of Tiam I always automatically assumed that it was part of MD's birthing ritual, sorta like suckling her newborns but with blood instead of milk.

I mean I can only remember one conversation where it was implied that they might be separate beings and that was a vague conversation between Mappo and Icarium in TBH.

I always assumed that Tiam was MD's draconic form as opposed to her metaphorical form of darkness or perhaps her Tiste Andii form.

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I wouldn't be surprised if that was so, as Mother Dark and Father Light are definitely the ultimate creation gods in this series. Tiam doesn't have quite that stature.

before RG i would've agreed but after Uldinaas's dissembling of the Elder God situation plus the fact that in TBH it's said that elder gods are elemental forces... then I'd say that MD is probably only of the same status as Mael or K'rul of any of the other elder gods... maybe slightly higher


but yeah i'm now not sure at all whether they're the same being haha

[Abyss]

Not the same person. Technically, Tiam is Mommy D's daughter, at least, so far as we know.

As for Tiam, i think the 'Mother of Dragons' thing does NOT mean she popped out all the Eleint, rather, only some of the soletaken (Menandore, Sukul, Sheltana), plus she is sort of the mother of the draconic aspect of those who drank her blood (Rake, Ruin, Ossi, Scabby, Korlat, Orfantal and two other Andii that we know of). More to the point, she's a skanky ho. So 'Mother of Dragons' yes, 'Mother of ALL Dragons', i think not. Also, skanky ho.

- Abyss, skanky ho, skanky ho.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Banana;215721 said:

I mean what's with the draconeon blood in Rake, Ruin and Darist then? And also Scabby too I guess. Everytime the series mentions a character having drank the blood of Tiam I always automatically assumed that it was part of MD's birthing ritual, sorta like suckling her newborns but with blood instead of milk.

"Drinking the blood of Tiam" has never been defined. I think that's deliberate. I don't understand why you talk about Mother Dark's birthing ritual though, it is Tiam's blood we're talking about.

Personally, I always thought that Tiam was killed, did a great deal of bleeding, and then whoever was present drank from the pool. I always thought that was the natural interpretation, since most Soletaken Eleint are not the spawn of Tiam.

How can this happen more than once? Well, Tiam has been described as repeatedly dying and returning to life. So she can be killed, bled and drunk (drank?) many times. I believe that Rake and his brothers gained their Eleint status at a single such event. It was definitely stated somewhere that Tiam is currently dead, and has been for some time. Presumably this prevents further Soletaken Eleint being created by the murder/sip route, but it has been suggested on the site that "blood of Tiam" could refer to the kin or offspring of Tiam also. So perhaps the blood of another born Eleint or born Soletaken Eleint would suffice. This would be an excellent explanation for Scabby's (assumed) murder of Sorrit.

Rambled a bit there, hope it made sense.

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I mean I can only remember one conversation where it was implied that they might be separate beings and that was a vague conversation between Mappo and Icarium in TBH.

Everything suggests they are separate beings.

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I always assumed that Tiam was MD's draconic form as opposed to her metaphorical form of darkness or perhaps her Tiste Andii form.

No reason to think that. I don't think Mother Dark has a corporeal form, or at least a human-sized walking talking form. Setting that aside, there's no reason to think Tiam & MD are alternate Soletaken forms of one individual. No other Soletaken follow this convention, they are always known by one name, and there's no reason to think that Tiam or MD are Soletaken at all. Tiam is an Eleint, and MD is some kind of primal force.

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before RG i would've agreed but after Uldinaas's dissembling of the Elder God situation plus the fact that in TBH it's said that elder gods are elemental forces... then I'd say that MD is probably only of the same status as Mael or K'rul of any of the other elder gods... maybe slightly higher


but yeah i'm now not sure at all whether they're the same being haha

I'm not sure about that. We don't know at all what the deal is with the Elder Gods, the Wandering that came before, or the Elemental Forces. But I don't identify Mother Dark or Tiam with any of those groups. At the least, both came before the Elder Gods. For the moment I'm sticking with Mother Dark as the original creative force of everything, and Tiam in a lesser role as "First Dragon".

Have any other credible creation myths been presented, apart from (and I paraphrase) "In the beginning, there was Mother Dark, and She was lonely"?

[Cougar]

I think it is more likelty that Mother Dark in the sense of the black hole being chased by Chaos is a different entity than the personage known as mother dark by the Andii. I'm in the camp that reckons the Tiste's heritage is a load of old rubbish and that Anomander, Silchas and Darist are just the first children of a particularly old/ascendant Tiste Andii and over time they have come to be seen as being the direct spawn of MD.

There is a rather nice theory, I think Hetan is into, that the Otataral dragon is Tiam, not sure about it but it could be.

Also I felt that the idea of MD having birthed the universe might be a bit off the mark based on Udinaas' thoughts on creation:

'Udinaas, like all Letherii, knew the sequences and the forms. First would come the three Fulcra known as the Realm Forgers. Fire, the silent scream of light, the very swirl of the stars themselves. Then Dolmen, bleak and rootless, drifting aimless in the void. And into the path of these two forces, the Errant. Bearer of its own unknowable laws, it would draw Fire and Dolmen into fierce wars. Vast fields of destructions, instance upon instance of mutual annihilation. But occasionally, rarely, there would be peace made between the two contestants. And Fire would bathe but not burn, and Dolmen would surrender its wandering ways, and so find root.
The Errant would then weave its mysterious skein, forging the Holds themselves. Ice. Eleint. Azath. Beast. And into their midst would emerge the remaining Fulcra. Axe, Knuckles, Blade, the Pack, Shapefinder and White Crow.'

Not sure either way really, just some thoughts...

[Aptorian]

Tiam and MD are two different beings, like DM I can't see how you can mistake one for another. They are refered to in very specific circumstances and if any one should know the distinction it's the brothers dark.

When speaking about Draconean nature it's said that Ruin drank deeper than Rake for example. It's hard to make this into Ruin birthed more than Rake.

Now to ask a question:

DM what are you on about above when you say:

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Mother Dark is the creator of (at least) the Tiste races, and possibly all the known intelligent races. Strong hints in RG she produced the KCCM before the Tiste Andii.

Birthed the KCCM? Is this Udinass revelations you're talking about because then I think he was talking about the Elementals, not KCCM.

I stick to the Red Mask idea of the KCCM being first born of Dragons.

[Banana]

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When speaking about Draconean nature it's said that Ruin drank deeper than Rake for example. It's hard to make this into Ruin birthed more than Rake.

Well I was kinda saying that just how human babies get milk from their mothers, maybe dragon babies get blood (ewww) from theirs. That's the main reason why I always thought Tiam and MD were the same entity.

Just to clarify, I no longer really believe this. But i'm curious that if Tiam's blood is supposed to be the source of of soletaken's draconean nature then how is Uldinaas's and Menadore's kid explained? Since he's obviously a draconean soletaken and Tiam is supposed to be lost or disappeared(i think, according to Mappo/Icarium in TBH)

[Cougar]

The idea that the KCCM/KCNH are the first born of Dragons may be a racial myth (or not); I think Erikson likes the idea of races having invented or altered their histories over time, we are getting strong hints in RG, especially from the journey with Ruin/Udinaas/Clip etc that the Tiste races perception of themselves and their linage may be incorrect or a fabrication.

This is one reason I have my doubts about the idea of Rake and his brothers being created directly from the entity MD, I know they lay claim to this title but that doesn't really mean anything.

I mean, if they were really the first born of dragons would it not be more likely that their warren would be Starvald Demelain?

That said on that principle Humans, Imass and the Eres would all share a warren which they don't seem to.

Lots of ideas - no real answers to be deduced.

[Abyss]

It's been suggested that the KC were geneticists of sorts. Perhaps their own genesis is from the Eleint, but not in a 'male and femal did a naughty thing and x months later...' sort of way.

Plus, it's been shown again and again that creation myths and tribal/racial legends are subjective and not reliable. For all we know, the KC created the dragons and Tiam was an experiment that got our of control and went of sheboinging random Tiste males...

It's been suggested (not confirmed) that any draconic blood can result in becoming soletaken, not just Tiam's - see Mappo and Iccy at the broken Skykeep.

And Menandore is draconic, and Udinaas had the Wyval possessing him, so that was two draconic elements at work in Rud's conception, plus even then Menandore says in MT that she had to put considerable effort into the whole thing.

- Abyss, also notes Tiam is a skanky ho.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;215961 said:

Now to ask a question:

DM what are you on about above when you say:



Birthed the KCCM? Is this Udinass revelations you're talking about because then I think he was talking about the Elementals, not KCCM.

I stick to the Red Mask idea of the KCCM being first born of Dragons.

You got me, I have my references mixed up. I was thinking the new RG info was that the KCCM were the first-born of MD, not the Dragons. Sorry.

[Shurque's biatch]

So [crazy theory]Way back when mommy dark was a kid she found herself a boyfriend from the wrong side of the realm. Since this was before they invented contraceptives the boyfriend stopped returning her calls. So MommyDearest pops out a couple of planets and holds and a litter of other elemental forces and what have you and then sinks into a few millenia of post partum.

Now the bf totally forgets about the whole affair. Way later he starts to get courted by a handful of really desparate dudes through the secret opening that he and MD used back in the day. Not realizing that he owes a bunch of alimony, he gets sucked through and crash lands killing them all in the process. [/crazy theory]

Doesn't explain Tiam directly. Plus it has the benefit of being really crazy.

[Lisheo]

Crazy theory: In RG, Mael's warren, Daneath Rusan, was described as the source of all life. Is it possible that Mother Dark was merely the sea of Danaeth Rusan, and over time the Andii legends twisted it into the incorrect idea of being a sentient being?

[Aptorian]

No, I don't think that's even close.

Udinass was probably right on the money, when he theorized that mother dark did not create the elementals or the universe for that matter. She's a driving force but the creation and ascertion of order was a combined thing where she was just one of several elementals that broke out chaos.

MD as the creator is a Tiste religous belief.

[Seed]

I agree, I think she's no more than an elemental power.
Perhaps one that arose from the accumulated belief of a night mother deity and fear of the dark amongst the early evolving sentient races. KCNK, forkrul, eres...high civilisation doesn't develop overnight, they must have started out proto tribal like everyone else and had all the associated superstious/mythical mental baggage as it were.

IMO something quickened them (the elementals) as it were into actual conscious, before that I think they were simply energy flows that moved over the natural land features and through the sky, the currents of power through chaos slowly aspecting over time due to close association with the land they were flowing through/over. Flowing by day, others by night, moving with the stars. Aspected energy rivers of power, threading all throughout the world. They got snarled up around the developing tribes and their living spaces and special places of belief and then one day *poof* one of the tangles snarls tighter and gains self awarness of a type. It suddenly realises it exists, floating amongst the sea of chaos and darkness that encompass the real world. Mother Dark was the first and she found Tiam there waiting for her, the elder goddess of dragons. Thus started the first war for dominance between order and chaos. The others came later with time. mwahaha

-Seed ...perhaps a little too drunk.