[councilor]

i was talking with a religious friend of mine (never mind his actual religion, it would detract from the point), and i pointed out that if there is god, then where does all this suffering come from? if god is so benevolent, then why have MILLIONS died in Africa? if he was so compassionate, then why is there so much destruction and death? his reply?

it's a test.

i could have nearly strangled him there and then. it's a test. it's ALWAYS a freaking test. everything you bring something along the lines of what i have said, the reply is: it's test. the question i asked him was, who are they testing? all those dead in africa, all the diseased, the starving, the children dying from drinking polluted water, who is that testing? they have no parents, no family, no one. so who the hell is being tested? he tells me that the test is on the western countries, and fro the evils that these sufferers have commited.

right. so god commands the death and suffering of all these people for the sake of testing the western countries? aside from the arrogance of this remark, what kind of god would do this? what kind of so called loving and compassionate god would let an more or less and entire continent suffer because of a test?

and of course, I'm told that this god wouldn't even have to apologies. no siree, because he made everything, he can do whatever the hell he likes. do apology required. not even an explaination required.

.....

anyway, i think i've calmed down a bit. what's your take on this test business?

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think that if you ask a religious person an important question, you shouldn't complain about getting a stupid answer.

[Obdigore]

Dolorous Menhir;214921 said:

I think that if you ask a religious person an important question, you shouldn't complain about getting a stupid answer.

What you view as a stupid question might be perfectly acceptable to a religious person.

That is the problem with the whole logic vs faith issue.

Logic points that these things are happening. Faith says there is a reason. Someone who has no faith in your god/reason will not believe it, and someone with faith in the god/reason will not understand why the logic-only person does not share their faith.

*Just saying this, I agree with you DM, but just because to you the answer is stupid, does not mean it is stupid to other people*

[Banana]

Ehh, I'm religious and honestly I think that that's a pretty stupid answer too. It's very easy for the religous to fall back to answers like "it's God's plan", "it's just God's will" and "it's a test" and all of those sorts. Sortof a cop out or a lazy man's answer.

To me personally, I think it's a free will issue more than anything else. God allows such evils to take place in the world because of the fact that he created us with such things as free will and dignity. And a God that gave us free will shouldn't take back such a gift by directly interfering in our world. Basically i'm saying God is taking a laissez-faire (hands off) approach. I'd also like to stress the dignity aspect because IMO we, as humans, have the right to not be coddled by a higher being. We have the right to grow, learn and develop as a society and to shape the world in whatever way we will.

But yeah, unfortunately it doesn't look like we're doing the greatest job

[caladanbrood]

I think that if nothing bad ever happened, the world would be pretty messed up. No one would ever need to make any effort doing anything, because nothing would ever go wrong if they didn't.


What you're also assuming with this topic is that god is a meddler. That he Errant-like, causes everything to happen. To way I see it, he/it/whatever started things off, and anything that happens after that is mostly our fault. I don't think it's a test - it's simply irrelevant to my religious outlook, because I don't believe in a god that actively intervenes with everything.

[paladin]

Banana;214947 said:

Ehh, I'm religious and honestly I think that that's a pretty stupid answer too. It's very easy for the religous to fall back to answers like "it's God's plan", "it's just God's will" and "it's a test" and all of those sorts. Sortof a cop out or a lazy man's answer.

To me personally, I think it's a free will issue more than anything else. God allows such evils to take place in the world because of the fact that he created us with such things as free will and dignity. And a God that gave us free will shouldn't take back such a gift by directly interfering in our world. Basically i'm saying God is taking a laissez-faire (hands off) approach. I'd also like to stress the dignity aspect because IMO we, as humans, have the right to not be coddled by a higher being. We have the right to grow, learn and develop as a society and to shape the world in whatever way we will.

But yeah, unfortunately it doesn't look like we're doing the greatest job

i agree. basic deist philosophy. god is creator and not moderator, at least in any way we can tell. a tangent on that is that jesus had freewill as well and made his choices on his own

[Gothos]

so God is a father that bailed and isn't even paying his alimony?


"What about dinosaur bones?"
"God put them there to test our faith"
"Man, I'm having that feeling that God set YOU in my god damn way to test MY faith right now"

[councilor]

In hindsight, i think that it is this that perhaps prevents the more religious to actually listen to reason. the more you use logic on them, the more they believe that YOU are the test tp their faith and hence basically refuses to listen to anything you say.

[caladanbrood]

councilor;215096 said:

In hindsight, i think that it is this that perhaps prevents the more religious to actually listen to reason. the more you use logic on them, the more they believe that YOU are the test tp their faith and hence basically refuses to listen to anything you say.

It's more likely to do with attitudes like this:

Quote

I think that if you ask a religious person an important question, you shouldn't complain about getting a stupid answer.

[stone monkey]

[quote=Banana;214947]
God allows such evils to take place in the world because of the fact that he created us with such things as free will and dignity. And a God that gave us free will shouldn't take back such a gift by directly interfering in our world. [quote]

That's a bigger cop out than the "test" answer. First of all, many things happen that cause suffering and death etc. and that are completely beyond any human control. Secondly, if you're a Christian, you believe in an omnipotent Creator; in which case He would be able to create an optimally happy universe without compromising free will. The logical upshot of this is that this Creator made the universe in a way as to deliberately cause human suffering...

Which would lead me, at least, to the conclusion that were such a being to exist, it definitely wouldn't deserve worship...

[paladin]

its not a cop out. its the basis of deist belief, and many great philospohers and statesmen have been deists, notable(to me as an american) most of the american founding fathers. in one way or another god creates universe, earth, humankind, etc and does not interfere in anyway we can see. creator not moderator

[Gem Windcaster]

stone monkey;215115 said:

in which case He would be able to create an optimally happy universe without compromising free will.

The problem with that statement is that it requires the prerequisite of humans understanding the universe. Besides, there's the tiny problem of how you define free will. But maybe that is beside the point, I don't know. Anyway, there's not only one paradox involved in believing in an omnipotent deity, there are several. In fact, the paradoxes grows on trees around faith.

As a Christian, when someone asks why God allows suffering, I wouldn't talk about a test. In fact, I have no idea why He allows what He allows. I don't understand one bit why. The only hints I've got are:
1. Free will.
2. He is actually doing stuff - we just don't notice all of it.
3. God cannot compromise free will.

Why? I have no idea. councilor, tell the person that said it was a test that a better description of what God does is: He teach us stuff, but only those that by believing in him have sort of signed on it. Otherwise we're kinda on our own. That doesn't mean he doesn't love everybody equally though.

As I said - paradoxes grows on trees around faith. But then, I kinda like paradoxes.

[chill]

God allows suffering... why of course.
God allows people to make war.
God allows people to oppress the weaker.
God allows people to pollute the planet.
God allows people to live in places where they can get killed by catastrophies.
God allows people to live as they like.
God allows people to spend on weapons instead on developing cures for diseases.
God allows people to make Money their god.


That hardly means we can blame him for everything, doesn't it?

[lokiman]

There are some parents who, when their children rebel, let them see the error of their ways, instead of forcing things upon the children.
In my opinion that is what god is doing, waiting for everyone to realize they need him and come back. Thats my take on it.

[Gem Windcaster]

There's a lot of interpretations to the reasons why God allows what he does. It has been disputed for the last 2000 years - the source for what Christians believe is the bible, and a lot of us have difference views on many details and explanations. It's hard though to try to explain what we believe to people that may not even have read the bible. Sometimes interpreters have to go to the bible sources and original languages to interpret it better. It's a science almost. However, every believer that have thought these things out for themselves (which many Christians have), have their own theory and take on these things. I have a hard time explaining my own beliefs about why God allows what he does though - I don't even know where to start.

[Minterlint]

Quote

the question i asked him was, who are they testing? all those dead in africa, all the diseased, the starving, the children dying from drinking polluted water, who is that testing? they have no parents, no family, no one. so who the hell is being tested? he tells me that the test is on the western countries, and fro the evils that these sufferers have commited.

I've never really understood this argument either. Mainly for the fact that why would God test the Western world, which is largely Christian of some capacity (or at least a vocal minority) and doesn't need to be convinced of His/Her presence? Shouldn't all of His/Her energies be spent raining plagues and hellfire down on the Western World, thereby convincing the "non-civilized" world that His/Her divine power is all...powerful? That way He/She kills two birds with one stone, giving those who need a test to remain faithful what they need, and converting the rest of the "heathen hordes."

Setting my sarcasm aside, as far as why crappy things happen in this world, I believe it really boils down to one fact. Some people are uber-major asses. If you want this to be a better world, don't be one of those people and encourage others not to be as well. Don't care what religion your are, or aren't for that matter, just think about someone else at least once per day and do something nice for them. Simplistic view, I know, but has made my life much calmer and less stressful.

Mintie, who has always known hellfire and damnation has been in his future and always keeps a fire extinguisher and cookie close at hand just in case:angel:

[Silencer]

The whole omnipotent thing, is really the problem I have with religion - for a start, why would someone who is all-powerful need to create Earth, then put the whole population through tests of faith, when we could all just start out in heaven, and only be sent to hell if we did something wrong? And the test.....a typical answer of someone who doesn't actually know why. Just because the person believes in that religion doesn't mean that they can see into their God's mind - can anyone in the Malazan series see into the Errant's mind? Other than specific people?
And of course - God (as in Christian God) cannot be omnipotent - he could simply have removed sin from the world. Like poof! Sin gone
And why on earth did he bother to create a whole universe? To taunt us with the possibility of finding other 'sentient' life?
Anyway, didn't really mean for this post to become a religion-rant. Sorry.

[Dag]

Silencer;215508 said:

The whole omnipotent thing, is really the problem I have with religion - for a start, why would someone who is all-powerful need to create Earth, then put the whole population through tests of faith, when we could all just start out in heaven, and only be sent to hell if we did something wrong?

Well, the Bible says, we did, in the beginning... But then Eve ate that apple, and - here we are.

stone monkey;215115 said:

That's a bigger cop out than the "test" answer. First of all, many things happen that cause suffering and death etc. and that are completely beyond any human control. Secondly, if you're a Christian, you believe in an omnipotent Creator; in which case He would be able to create an optimally happy universe without compromising free will. The logical upshot of this is that this Creator made the universe in a way as to deliberately cause human suffering...

And again - Eve... Personally, I think that the Adam and Eve story is a nice allegory showing what unfortunately seems to be the sad truth about human beings - that even in a paradise with no worries at all there would be enough individuals who would do anything just to screw the rest of us up. Out of boredom, stupidity, maliciousness or whichever other reason.

And I do believe that in the end it all comes down to this "free will" thing. I don't want to start (again...) the debate if the world was created by an omnipotent being or not, but I agree with you that it certainly isn't a nice and friendly place. Also, whether we humans are creations of God or simply products of evolution, we do have a free will to choose our actions and to some extent predict the consequences of those actions. The fact that there are still enough of us who deliberately choose to do things that impose suffering on the people around them makes this already not-so-perfect world eve more hell-like. If everyone chose to be good and nice to the others and combined their efforts to make this world a better place for all and not just for themselves, with help of our wits and technology we could effortlessly control those "many things that cause suffering and death etc. and that are completely beyond any human control" and could have already turned this world into an utopic paradise.

[Gem Windcaster]

Silencer;215508 said:

The whole omnipotent thing, is really the problem I have with religion - for a start, why would someone who is all-powerful need to create Earth, then put the whole population through tests of faith, when we could all just start out in heaven, and only be sent to hell if we did something wrong? And the test.....a typical answer of someone who doesn't actually know why. Just because the person believes in that religion doesn't mean that they can see into their God's mind - can anyone in the Malazan series see into the Errant's mind? Other than specific people?
And of course - God (as in Christian God) cannot be omnipotent - he could simply have removed sin from the world. Like poof! Sin gone
And why on earth did he bother to create a whole universe? To taunt us with the possibility of finding other 'sentient' life?
Anyway, didn't really mean for this post to become a religion-rant. Sorry.

let me just clarify the Sin part for you. I know this is a tricky one because not even Christians think that much about it. The original and final definition of what sin is has to do with the presence of God on this planet. And with presence I mean some sort of presence. This is how a I see the events:

1. God created everything - and humans lived in his presence.
2. The humans decided that they didn't trust God to do what was best for them - they basically said: what are God hiding? (also remember that as it is described - the humans were basically Gods themselves since they were created 'in His likeness'.
3. God Couldn't, for several reasons explained by His nature and the nature of the universe (which we don't know that much about), be around such unbelief and pretty much left - on some sort of level. He no longer was present fully on Earth.
4. The humans and the Earth changed dramatically from the creator's presence diminishing - it started dying. Including the humans.
5. Sin = absence of God/Gods presence/faith.

Sin is simply the absence of God on this planet - not completely but it's diminished.
That's why Satan came here - it's pretty much the only place he can be, since God's presence is so strong everywhere else ( I assume). All the other part of how Sin is defined through human history is the effect caused by God's presence diminishing. The commandments, for instance, is not created until after the whole disaster. You can read about it yourselves in Genesis (the first book of the bible).

God didn't lose control though - and he never left completely. He just had to do things differently.

-One question that I've asked myself about the fact that God probably knew what would happen - why did he put that tree in the Garden of Eden in the first place? Why give us the chance of messing up?

The only thing I can imagine is that: he didn't want blind worshippers - he wanted us to trust him by our own accord. He wanted to give us a choice.

So it was never a matter of testing - it was simply a matter of having a choice.

[Dolorous Menhir]

It's very easy to cause offence here, but I have to ask.

Is what you described above what you believe, Gem?