[cerveza_fiesta]

My first thoughts on reading the Icarium's machine part of RG was that it was a memory-infuser, but it got me thinking why the machine would suck in modern peoples' memories. Then I started thinking about talk in MBotF about the strength of blood lines and ties between present and past / living and the dead / the memories and the earth.

This led me to believe that while the machine is a memory absorber, it is not just absorbing the memories of those it contacts, but those of all the people that have lived and died in the lether area all the way back through the ages since the machine was built. Absorbing the modern peoples' memories and creating a link through himself and to the earth through his blood, I figure Iccy is creating a kind of memory infusion loop to try and permanently fuse the switch that keeps turning off his memory all the time.

As for the "if k'rul did it, so can I" line (or whatever the exact reading was) in the context of my theory, he's referring to how K'rul bound himself to the earth in the process of creating the warrens. Since Iccy is half toblakai, he may be using a version of his personal warren to create a new and permanent warren and house in the pantheon aspected to memory or some such thing.

The part about "the machine was broken" might be alluding to Iccy's permanent death. If the machine didn't function properly then perhaps the process of turning himself into a warren didn't work out so well and Iccy got shredded.

What do you think of this?

PS I did search this a bit, so if I'm rehashing terribly then let me know and sorry! I thought a new post would be cool since its a new theory.

[Zanth13]

Well the people killed by the machines glow did have the memories zapped from them didnt they ( i think I remember reading that).

I guess the Krul connection is the big point here.

-K'rul came back from near oblivion

-K'rul created the warrens

-K'rul enveloped a continenant size land mass into a warren

-K'rul (unknown acheivement to be added by a smarter member of the forum)

-K'rul could have done something we havent seen yet


It is interesting that Iccy compaired himself to an elder god as if they were equals.... He is usually humble...so I guess we can conclude that iccy is an individual who can rival an elder god in raw power (maybe??)

[cerveza_fiesta]

xanth13;214725 said:

-K'rul created the warrens

Does k'rul creating the warrens refer to elder warrens or the house-type warrens?

Do you think its going too far to say that Iccy might be trying to create the next warren revolution? Like the re-organization from holds to houses...maybe this time it will be cottages? Outhouses? Gazebos?

Joking about the cottages title, but serious about the re-organization thing.

[Abyss]

cerveza_fiesta;214733 said:

Does k'rul creating the warrens refer to elder warrens or the house-type warrens?....

It appears that Krul (with some draconic assistance) SHAPED (not created) the Elder warrens aside from KG and SD, which subsequently evolved into the 'younger' warrens.

It's complicated.

- Abyss, notes 'condos' are obviously the next step...

[Zanth13]

I think its important to note that the Warrens have been confirmed to be living entities now.... that can cominicate/plan ect ect.

This will probably play an important part in the war/plans of the gods ahead...

I doubt any warrens want to go the same route that shadow did.



- I am High King of Apartment B... by the way.

[Gem Windcaster]

If Icarium created his own warren of memories, does he become a God? There might more ways to become a God than just worship. Who knows.

[Abyss]

xanth13;214739 said:

I think its important to note that the Warrens have been confirmed to be living entities now.... that can cominicate/plan ect ect...

Ah, but have they really?

We have Kulp's assertion that when he links to Meanas, he 'felt something', and we have a one-time conversation that took place entirely in Seren's head, with, supposedly, Mokra, which is one of the least 'substantial' warrens there are... no physical space a la Meanas that we know of (and if it did, Corlo & co wouldn't have been stranded in Leth in MT, since he was still using his warren there), possibly some peripheral link to Meanas/Rashan/Thyr, and moreover, it's the warren of the mind, which means that whole chat could have been Seren's subconcious.

I agree that there's a sense of 'environment' to the warrens - they evolve, break, change, even move perhaps, but 'alive' as in 'conscious', i'm not convinced. Interesting theory tho'.

On the original topic, Krul shaped the warrens, he didn't create them. So the question may be, what was Iccy trying to shape, and why, and moreover, how badly did he blow it?

- Abyss, awaits Greepeace's 'Save the Warrens' campaign...

[Clip]

Gem Windcaster;214741 said:

If Icarium created his own warren of memories, does he become a God? There might more ways to become a God than just worship. Who knows.

Well, Iccy is already a god, he is worshiped by the Cabali sects, and he is ascendant, so that fills in all the requirements for bieng a God.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Abyss;214743 said:

On the original topic, Krul shaped the warrens, he didn't create them. So the question may be, what was Iccy trying to shape, and why, and moreover, how badly did he blow it?

I think the "but alas the machine was broken" was to individual and pointed in the writing to have just been an in-passing remark. I figure it points to something major that will occur as a result of the machine not working properly...like a wildcard that none of the gods had previously predicted.

I still am leaning toward Iccy's intention to form a new warren about himself in an effort to fuse his memory loss switch.

clip;214744 said:

Well, Iccy is already a god, he is worshiped by the Cabali sects, and he is ascendant, so that fills in all the requirements for bieng a God.

Good point.

Perhaps he does have enough power to really do some major reshaping then. Iccy's would be the opposite of the Errant's case where he no longer has worshippers and thus has no power to predict and influence events anymore.

[Abyss]

clip;214744 said:

Well, Iccy is already a god, he is worshiped by the Cabali sects, and he is ascendant, so that fills in all the requirements for bieng a God.

This is an interesting point, since that cult DOES worship him, which is counter to the observation, in DG, by Pust, iirc, that Icarium was not as ascended as he 'should' be.

More likely, Iccy is, at best, in the category of Dassem and Rake, Ascendents who are worshipped as gods but don't accept/aspire to godhood.


- Abyss, isn't a god but goes drinking with a couple of them.

[Crow Clan Baby]

I dunno. Iccy is more than well known for building machines to measure time, it's the most visible manifestation of one of his personal obsessions (aside from all the destroyed civilisations, of course), so I see no reason why this should be different.

I think he's gone back in time to kick some Crippled God butt. Or maybe there will be some weird time loop where Iccy becomes the CG. That would be fun.

[Gem Windcaster]

clip;214744 said:

Well, Iccy is already a god, he is worshiped by the Cabali sects, and he is ascendant, so that fills in all the requirements for bieng a God.

I actually didn't think about that. It's true, he is already worshipped...*wonders how long it will take for RG to sink in - 10 rereads aren't enough?*

As for what Abyss said...the time warren, or whatever it is he was trying to create (or actually created), would give him a way to focus his powers, yes? Makes for a much more dangerous Icarium. And I mean for the nameles ones. The rest of the world will be safer. Maybe.

[Aptorian]

I've been thinking about the machine myself and trying to figure it out.

Has anyone noticed that the leader of the Liberty Consiegn(sp?) seemed almost drawn to the artifacts he was collecting. He noted that his mind was fuzzy and he was possessed by the project. Like Iccys machines were enchanting him or something.

I can't really wrap my head around the "If Kru'll can, why can't I" thing. Mael notes that at some times Kru'll took Iccy under his wing. This might be some kind of direct link. Iccy is probably, unlike the many, in the know about the warrens true nature. He's got inside knowledge from the architect perhaps.

My impression is it's some kind of time/history/knowledge-fusion device. It sounds like it might be an omnipotence machine. But isn't this what Mocra is?

Some body above said something about the warren now being aware. If I understood the Mocra/Serren talk right, this isn't true. Mocra is aware. Mocra is something people can now draw on, but actually it sufuses everything all the warrens, it was Kru'lls way of solidifying and controlling the flow of the warrens... Mocra is belief.

I've been meaning to make a "Kru'll, Mocra, Burn, Warrens"-thread because it all seems very complicated. Magic, also hold magic, all comes from the earth. This is clearly seen in DG
and RG when magic can't be used or is very weak because life has been drained out of the earth. This also fits well with the "Burn dies, magic dies" problem Brood and Rake brood about (hee hee) in MoI.

EDIT: Iccy isn't a god or Iccy would have been driven even more insane by his cabalefollowers. I also doubt he's an ascendant. I think Pust was right on the point. Iccy is something all together different, me thinks. unless of course someone has found Iccy listed on the ascendant lists in any of the older books.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Quote

by apt
My impression is it's some kind of time/history/knowledge-fusion device.

More or less what I was saying in post 1 in a lot less words. Thanks.

I'm kind of changing my view above slightly based on how somebody mentioned (maybe in another post..please take credit) that at the end of RG hood finally stepped foot on lether and death came to the continent.

WHat do you awl think about Icarium's machine being a ghost trapper. As in, it's the source of the power that's trapping all the souls to that continent like the tiste andii wraiths and all the tarthenal ghosts and kuru qan etc etc.

It could be that his machine makes the memory absorption more explicit than a link through the ground and ancestors memories in modern peoples' blood. If his machine was also the reason for the ghosts sticking around, it would be absorbing memories from every human, andii or other that lived and died on the continent since the machine's construction.

-revised theory-

Absorbing all the memories would result in one complete and clear history of an entire civilization throughout millenia, and Icarium thought that if he could possess just one pure and unadaultered memory he could fuse his memory loss switch and become complete.

-revised crazy theory-

The machine was broken, Icarium goes insane at some point in the last 3 books and there's going to be a huge fight where trull's ascendant form comes back to wreak holy fricken vengeance

[Gem Windcaster]

Aptorian;214839 said:

I also doubt he's an ascendant. I think Pust was right on the point. Iccy is something all together different, me thinks. unless of course someone has found Iccy listed on the ascendant lists in any of the older books.

That depends. Maybe he is a different ascendant?

[Aptorian]

Gem Windcaster;214872 said:

That depends. Maybe he is a different ascendant?

What is a different ascendant?

Ascendant in the world of Wu is the term for creatures that have become more than what is the "normal" of the race they belonged to. They've slipped they're bounds and capable of becoming anything and many things.

Iccy is damaged goods. By all accounts he's more powerfull than anything and has more potential than many things. But he's unable to be anything than what he is now, wandering and searching. He's unable of becoming.

Now, the Eres'al touch might have changed this. The Machine has surely done something more... but ascendant not yet I think.

[Tremolo]

Are the machines from before or after Iccy's little accident with the azath house?

[cerveza_fiesta]

Quote

Iccy isn't a god or Iccy would have been driven even more insane by his cabalefollowers. I also doubt he's an ascendant. I think Pust was right on the point. Iccy is something all together different, me thinks. unless of course someone has found Iccy listed on the ascendant lists in any of the older books

I didn't notice he wasn't on the list

Another machine question - was the machine from MT that trull walks across that turns very very slowly one of Iccy's constructs?

I remember it being described in detail, but do you think it relates to the city-o'-lether machine?

[Aptorian]

cerveza_fiesta;214881 said:

I didn't notice he wasn't on the list

Another machine question - was the machine from MT that trull walks across that turns very very slowly one of Iccy's constructs?

I remember it being described in detail, but do you think it relates to the city-o'-lether machine?

I don't think it's a Letheras machine but I do think it is one of his time-pieces. Remember there's jaghut script on a stone besides it and much like the two other we've seen it works with incredibly slow but probably endless precision.

[Gem Windcaster]

Aptorian;214876 said:

What is a different ascendant?

Ascendant in the world of Wu is the term for creatures that have become more than what is the "normal" of the race they belonged to. They've slipped they're bounds and capable of becoming anything and many things.

Iccy is damaged goods. By all accounts he's more powerfull than anything and has more potential than many things. But he's unable to be anything than what he is now, wandering and searching. He's unable of becoming.

Now, the Eres'al touch might have changed this. The Machine has surely done something more... but ascendant not yet I think.

I think everything about Icarium is not normal. I think what makes people scared of him and specifically the NO, is that somehow he is too powerful for rules, kinda outside of the rules of Wu (outside of time is related?). I think Icarium is as much an ascendant as anyone could ever be - except, as you say, he's damaged goods, and needs to focus his powers. But yes, I see what you are saying. I guess it depends on the perspective. Or something.