[Lisheo]

Iccy wouldnt steal anyones memories. He is, as you said, a decent guy. And why would he want the memories of others? He is searching for his own memories, his own past. Maybe the machine was something to do with the Azath? Some way for him to access it? The vaporization was because it was broken...

[H'Ranga]

I was rereading RG and found a quote from Kettle which (I think) is about Icarium.

RG p. 61 said:

'The dead told me. They told me lots of things. So did the ones under the trees, the trapped ones. And they said something else too. They said the vast wheel is about to turn, one last time, before it closes. It closes, because it has to, because that's how he made it. To tell him all he needs to know. To tell him the truth.'
'Tell who?' [..]
'Him, the one who's coming. You'll see.'

Not much of a shocking revelation, but maybe someone who is even cleverererer then me can do something with it. (or it was pointed out somewhere else, then you can bash me a bit )

[D'rek]

1) Something I'm sure has some significance to this is Bugg's commentary during RG about particular arrangements of buildings in a city being better or more powerful in some way. He says that the remains of the old city beneath Letheras still hold to this pattern and implies that the collapse of Scale House has ramifications to this.
2) There are a couple mentions throught the novel that the pieces of Rautos' "machine" are some sort of map.
--> If each piece of Rautos' machine has a big version of itself hidden in Letheras, and these constitute Iccy's machine, then the machine no doubt has much to do with the "powerful arrangement of buildings". Thus, the collapse of Scale House probably somehow changed the machine significantly. Either the references to it being broken are to its former state and scale house's collapse has fixed it, or the collapse is the reason for its' brokenness.

[Lisheo]

Maybe all his temporal maps are linked to the Letheras Machine, and everything theyve ever recorded will be transferred into Iccy's mind?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I think the Elder Warrens were created with Icarium's blood. He thought to himself, if K'rul can do it, so can I. K'rul created the Warrens from his blood. Ergo, Icarium used his to make the warrens. I know it's not much of a theory but it might be true.

[Skywalker]

Ain said:

I think the Elder Warrens were created with Icarium's blood. He thought to himself, if K'rul can do it, so can I. K'rul created the Warrens from his blood. Ergo, Icarium used his to make the warrens. I know it's not much of a theory but it might be true.

Ooh... I like that theory. How about if K'rul didn't open his veins to make warrens - he stole Iccy's blood and made him a relapsing amnesiac.

[Mentalist]

umm.. guys?
We have a crazy theories page for this, lol....
If Iccy's blood was used to create diff. worlds, then he'd have to be one of the most badass gods with tons of worshippers...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

kud13;244306 said:

umm.. guys?
We have a crazy theories page for this, lol....
If Iccy's blood was used to create diff. worlds, then he'd have to be one of the most badass gods with tons of worshippers...

@sky-walker

Why thank you. All the other people I discussed this with thought it was crazy. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they hadn't read the books.

Yeah, I suppose that if he had used his blood to make the EW then he would be more awesome. But the Cabalhii worship him as a god, and there is so much about him we don't know. His bereft memories, and such. Like he's always been here.

I reckon we shouldn't know he's a Jhag. It seems to me that Icarium should be this sort of unknown race. Hmmm, probably the romantic in me.

[cerveza_fiesta]

H said:

I was rereading RG and found a quote from Kettle which (I think) is about Icarium.

Not much of a shocking revelation, but maybe someone who is even cleverererer then me can do something with it. (or it was pointed out somewhere else, then you can bash me a bit )

Yeah, kettle's pretty in tune with stuff going on

That quote pretty much suggests the same stuff I was saying earlier as far as I can tell. The machine is supposed to fuse his memory lapse and make him not "lost" anymore (a la fid's comment - see 1 or 2 pages back on this thread)

[Mentalist]

Ain said:

@sky-walker

Why thank you. All the other people I discussed this with thought it was crazy. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they hadn't read the books.

Yeah, I suppose that if he had used his blood to make the EW then he would be more awesome. But the Cabalhii worship him as a god, and there is so much about him we don't know. His bereft memories, and such. Like he's always been here.

I reckon we shouldn't know he's a Jhag. It seems to me that Icarium should be this sort of unknown race. Hmmm, probably the romantic in me.

lol, call me a sceptic if you must, but i'm not bying it.. the Cabahilli used to worship thousands of various gods, Ivcarium's only worshipped by a small sect... besides, Elder warrens were around before iccy from what I'm assuming, and the whole "using an individual's blood to create entire worlds--and SD, KE and KE are DEFINETELY other worlds--just seems waaay too far-fetched for me...

[Sinisdar Toste]

@kud... actually the cabahlii worship one god, icarium. they just have thousands of sects, each one based on a different teaching about the one god. i think you need to read the bits with senior assesor a bit closer. he always mentions just one god.

[Lisheo]

My god... But then why would the poisoning of the warrens affect Krul if it was Iccy's blood? The one flaw lol...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Did the bits in MoI about the Warrens being poisoned include the Elder Warrens? if not, then it isn't a flaw.

Another piece of evidence- before Iccy walks into the machine, he slits his wrist. Spilling blood. Hmm.

Besides, was K'rul himself really affected? When he conversed as Keruli he seemed rather ok. That included after Capustan was rescued, when the poisoning of the warrens was readily apparent.

[Aptorian]

The posion was seeping into death and darkness, so eventually all the warrens would have been dead.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Death bit back, and so did Dark. Stands to reason that Icarium didn't become sick, if the Warrens retaliated. besides, Iccy is strong.

[raest]

My theory is rather simple. I'm about halfway through a RG re-read, but I'm too lazy to find quotes, and I don't remember the other books either. Anyway, my theory:

Icarium IS trying to emulate K'Ruls act of shaping the warrens.
- Gothos' Ritual stuffs up the (future?) development/evolution of the Holds into Warrens.
- A few hundred thousand years ago, Icarium arrives in Lether only to find his father gone and gets depressed.
- He finds K'Ruls temple and sees what K'Rul has done - shape the Warrens in his blood.
- Except, because of Gothos' Ritual the Warrens in Lether will develop pitifully slowly or not exist at all, eg Death.
- So Icarium being the nice guy that he is, decides that he'll create a Gate (maybe BE the Gate?) through which the Warrens can exist/be shaped. (I think Bugg mentions in RG something about a door being created?)
- But he isn't an Elder God so he needs power/souls/memories, therefore he builds the machine to capture souls (Lifestealer?) for his power boost.
- But it takes a long time for enough souls to be capture (or lying around because Death doesn't exist), so everywhere he goes he builds machines that measure time so that'll he'll know how much time has elapsed since he built the machine. Or maybe they're funky countdown timers that will tell him the precise moment when enough souls are captured.

Unfortunately I couldn't turn this into a Theory of All Things Icarium, since I didn't fit in the memory loss or Azath/Nameless Ones plots into it.

Ok, pick it apart!

[Mentalist]

well, I have no contextual proof to back this up, really, but I remain convinced that the power for the shaping of warrens came from SD (which is why it is now "dead" as it is.) my reasoning for this has to do with the fact that the dragons were causing all kinds of chaos in the collapsing KE when we last see it. KIlly and Rake worked to chase them out. they'd got to their home in SD--that seems pretty obvious. this may be what is referred to as "the last flight of dragons" in GotM.
also, the thing in RG prologue about dragon blood falling through and going back to the warrens it was aspected to--meaning draconean blood was used.... Ofc, if we follow Abyss' line of logic, there's no reason why Iccy couldn't be ANOTHER of Tiam's kids... cept for the Toblakai comment by Karsa...

[pastures]

raest, i really dig your theory. i.e. machine is to boost his power, not his memories. however, it could also give him memories that he hopes that, while not directly his own memories, will be ABOUT him. So he can patch his past indirectly. But really, he doesn't need the machine for that. The Nameless Ones can do that and DO do that to a degree already (to control him).

About the Azath: I think the Azath are creation or order (as opposed to chaos) aspected in general, but each Azath also has a secondary aspect linked to the environment they are in (death, life, etc). I say they are creation aspected because they arise in response to threats to creation. Kind of like sorcerous antibodies for the "blood of power" (the stuff that warrens are made of). Since you cannot really separate sorcerous power from chaos (look at how the warrens, including chaos, are interdependent), i would say K'rul is himself an incarnation of creation. He embodies both order/power and chaos. Hence, the Azath might well be K'rul's antibodies.

[pastures]

kud13;246073 said:

well, I have no contextual proof to back this up, really, but I remain convinced that the power for the shaping of warrens came from SD (which is why it is now "dead" as it is.) my reasoning for this has to do with the fact that the dragons were causing all kinds of chaos in the collapsing KE when we last see it. KIlly and Rake worked to chase them out. they'd got to their home in SD--that seems pretty obvious. this may be what is referred to as "the last flight of dragons" in GotM.
also, the thing in RG prologue about dragon blood falling through and going back to the warrens it was aspected to--meaning draconean blood was used.... Ofc, if we follow Abyss' line of logic, there's no reason why Iccy couldn't be ANOTHER of Tiam's kids... cept for the Toblakai comment by Karsa...

and using kud's interesting comments, i would add that dragons might well be K'rul's red blood cells. Azath are the white blood cells, of course.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

pastures;247067 said:

and using kud's interesting comments, i would add that dragons might well be K'rul's red blood cells. Azath are the white blood cells, of course.

Hmmm... but the Azath imprisons beings of power. Or do white cells eat red cells?