[Skywalker]

I am done with the first three books of the Bonehunters on my reread and think there may be a flaw in the book's plot. Has to do with this whole deal with Dejim Nebrahl > Hounds of Shadow > Deragoth > Poliel > Paran > Shadowthrone deal.

Bear with me.

Right... when Paran is travelling to Seven Cities, he says he is coming because Kruppe told him a plot is in the offing that he is already too late to stop but should try to stop anyway. He ponders overnight, consults his deck and then leaves for 7Cs. En route, he meets Apsalar, who he tells nothing much at all. He arrives on the shores of Raraku, asks Hedge to help him find the Deragoth because Dejim Nebrahl is out there and needs to be countered with the very things that got him the first time around - the Deragoth. Then he goes into the realm beyond Hood's realm, and just before he releases the Deragoth, calls on Shadowthrone to warn him that the Deragoth will look for the HoS.

You with me? Good.

Here's where the tale derails for me. Mappo Runt went and killed one or two of the D'ivers. Iskaral Pust managed to hurt another. Masan Gilani crippled another. The Hounds of Shadow then arrived on the scene, and killed all but one of Dejim Nebrahl's selves, and carried the crippled last one to G'danisban and Poliel's temple. The Deragoth followed...

Paran, in the final gambit, trapped Poliel with his shard of Otataral from Lorn's long-presumed-lost blade (and admitted retcon from SE ) and stepped out of the way for the Deragoth to finish both Poliel, and Dejim.

My problem is, he hadn't set out to destroy Poliel! He wanted to negate Dejim Nebrahl with the Deragoth and if I read it right (maybe I didn't) the Hounds of Shadow did most of the job for him. The Deragoth themselves killed only the last crippled lizard cat and Poliel.

Why not call on Shadowthrone and explain to him that Dejim Nebrahl needed to be nullified? Also, if ST and Cot were dealing with the aftermath of Nebrahl's attack anyway why wouldn't they deploy the Hounds to take out Nebrahl?

Is this a case of SE over-convoluting the plot? Paran only wanted to kill the Deragoth. My contention is he coulda done that without the Deragoth. Nebrahl simply wasn't that big a deal to warrant the whole 'trip beyond Hood's realm'.

That said, I can see how the trip beyond Hood's realm fits into the overall story arc. Without it, you couldn't have got Paran his army and made him High Fist, done the bits with the Tyrgalle guild, shown off Pust's awesome power, or (RG Spoilers)

Spoiler

got Hedge into the Refugium, done the hinting/ exposition about Hood being Jaghut

Still... seemed an overcontrivance to me. Like taking out an ant with a nuke.

Rant over.

[Mcflury]

the way I read it why it all was this messed up is this: they weren't too sure how strong Nebrahl would be, and thus Paran played safe and brought the Deragoth into play (because they'd certainly be strong enough to handle him). So to put it in your terms: they weren't sure how strong the ant was exactly, and thus they decided to nuke it instead of just stamp it to death and maybe die trying.
Also, nobody can just ask ST or Cot to do what anyone wants, because they're stuborn idiots at times and they just do what pleases them best Sure, paran is master of the deck, so they would have to listen to him up to a certain point, but ST wouldn't be ST if he didn't a find a way around that
Anyways, when SE makes something too complicated, just assume it was the only way (also, when you have to make quick decisions, especially when you're not too much trained for it, your decision won't always be the easiest and nicest way to solve the problem)

[Aptorian]

Agrees with McFlury.

Dejim was supposed to have been EVIL, but actually wasn't more dangerous than a squadron of marines could have handled it.

Also the whole thing with Paran and the Deragoth ending up fucking up Poliel, might have been STs plot. ST is raging because, as we see, a couple of hounds easily chewed up the Trohlbaral. Then he has a thought, Poliel is out of control and the Deragoth can be used to stop her, that's when he twidles his fingers and declares his own brilliance.

It's schemes within schemes.

[Mcflury]

hmm, ST wouldn't act before it are schemes within schemes within schemes though Don't forget ST is the most cunning dude perhaps in the book, and he won't act without showing us all his absolute cunningness...

[Aptorian]

Did you read the scene? You could see the idea hitting him... It would seem that even the cunning god of shadow can act on a moments spontaneous inspiration.

[Mcflury]

maybe he faked being surprised? He knew all along that was going to happen... since he is so cunning and all... (don't shoot me, I've had a month and more exams, so I'm getting tired and saying intelligent things gets harder and harder... luckily it'll all be over in 14 hours from now )

[Dammon]

Its been a while since i Read the Bonehunters (Just about to finish Midnight Tides on my first Re-read) but i remember getting the distinct impression that both Paran and Shadowthrone knew exactly what they were doing when the Deragoth destroyed Poliel.

Doesn't Paran think or make a comment about the Ascendants (or gods) learning not to play games with mortals or something along those lines after Poliel is killed? and why else would he trap her there with the Otataral if he had no intention of getting her killed? he knew that the Deragoth were on their way.

[Aptorian]

The Deragoth were released to handle Dejim, not Poliel. Releasing the Deragoth to handle Dejim is what we in danish call "Shooting sparrows with canons"... It's overkill.

[Dammon]

True, they were released specifically to deal with Dejim, but after re-reading the part where Paran traps Poliel in the world with the Otataral he doesn't show suprise at all to hear the hounds on their way. He also knows that the Deragoth will be chasing them because he warned ST about it earlier.

So while they may not have been released to deal with Poliel it looks to me as though both Paran and ST took the oppurtunity presented to them to remove a particularly annoying player from the game for good.

[Aptorian]

Yes, but like I wrote earlier, that was improvisation after the release of the Deragoth.

[Dammon]

Oh, sorry, didn't read you whole post properly

[Venerus]

I wonder if the Deragoth just eat gods on principle, because they're rivals (of a sort... historically, anyway). Maybe seeing Poleil, meddler in human affairs that she is, drove them into a hungry rage.

As pointed out earlier in this thread, I think it's an idea worth countenancing that eating the Goddess of Disease could potentially have some unhealthy effects.

SE really likes medicine in his books, it wouldn't surprise me if TtH starts with Deragoth + upset stomaches.

[Abyss]

Keep in mind Paran only knew:
- that the NOs had released Dejim;
- that Dejim was VERY dangerous;
- that his 'job' as MoD called on him to stop Dejim.

Paran did NOT know:
- that Mappo took out two bodies;
- that the NOs had thrown in a fix so that Dejim was starving to death;
- that ST had sent Pust to keep Dejim was eating people;
- that after all of the above, Masan Gilani took out yet another d'ivers body.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and figure he was already planning on looking into the dead soldiers river thing and this was a convenient reason to take the trip with the TTG at the same time.

Plus, as i see it, the Deragoth were always around - Paran just summoned them from wherever they were. It's not like they weren't off eating other things/people/gods before he had the Hounds lure them to 7C.

(...and before anyone jumps in and says they were stuck in the statues - As i see it, only Doan and Ganrod's souls were stuck in the statues - when Onrack shattered them, two Deragoth immediately arrived to claim the souls. The statues were linked to the big doggies, which was why Hedge destroying them acted as a summons, but note that only with the souls did they show up immediately. With Hedge, they arrived with much howling.)

As for the Poliel situation, keep in mind Paran kept a chunk of the otataral sword when he separated from the TTG, BEFORE he linked up with the Host. Probably an MoD thing, but i suspect he was always planning a Convergence (Poliel, Soliel, Dejim, Hounds, Deragoth, Apsalar even) as a means to take the goddess out. The finer details he improv'd.

Or SE pulled the whole thing out of the warren in his a$$ and who cares, it was an awesome read.

- Abyss, trusts in SE, believes in SE, SE is good, SE is great...