[Cougar]

tharinock;227651 said:

point is, they are just as likely to enslave mankind as dn.

as for being overhyped, i think of it like this. he was fresh awakened, so was in a weak state. He had the capability to become powerful, if given enough blood. Paran knew that DN was one of the most powerful guys in the First Empire, and might not have known that he was in a weakened state. Thus the hype is not necesarily wrong, just too early. Had DN had time to gain power Paran might have needed the Deragoth to destroy him.

I felt that this was further illustration from SE that these previously powerful ascendant beings are out of their depth and/or unprepared for the place that Wu has become further evidence of this in RG which I don't want to Spoilerize here, and on many other occasions.

[Aptorian]

The Cult of Dessembrae;227708 said:

Are there any hints that a hold could act in a similar way to mockra, but far less subtly...like mass confusion, rather than subtle trickery?

If Ruins knowledge of the Holds is anything to go by, then no. Remember, when Seren or someone in RG asks Ruin if he couldn't just dazzle the soldiers in the fort with Mocra. Ruin, sort of surprised, says he's never hurt of something like this.

[Dancer+]

You're right, The holds are far less subtle. But I was half referring to spells which just shock the body rather than physically trick the mind, which half have the same effect or perhaps illusion.

But that's off-topic. The Holds don't have any such thing to subtly and mentally plant something else in someone's head unless Ruin lacks a lot of knowledge.

[SiriusL]

I rather like the idea that the Hounds specifically stole the last DN as bait to get the Deragoth to Poliel. It's not clear from the text at all, but one sort of has to assume that Paran and ST planned this more specifically off-screen. It's pretty clear from ST's rant at Cotillion shortly after that the Shadowy One intended for QB to be caught and/or killed by the Hounds.

The big question to me, now, is where did the Deragoth go? I know there are only five, and they're a little less impressive than they used to be, but they still should wreak some havoc around 7Cs.

The other thing I wanted to mention--it's pretty clear from the text that the Deragoth predate the First Empire and Dessimbelackis. What's not clear is whether the seven Deragoth in the statues are the same as the Deragoth from prehistory, or whether they are specifically the Deragoth into which Dessi veered at some point.

There's also a scene in BH where someone...Mappo...is remembering the last Eres'al and how some scary dude with seven black hounds took her away for safe keeping. If this is indeed Dessimbelackis, it indicates that maybe he wasn't a d'ivers, or that he not only could veer into the hounds, but that he also had hounds as BFFs.

[Skywalker]

Continuing on my cross-forum good quote posting run:

Osric to L'oric in HoC @ the Deragoth:

Quote

"The Hounds of Darkness. The seven beasts that Dessimbelackis made pact with—and oh, weren’t the Nameless Ones shaken by that unholy alliance? The seven beasts, L’oric, that gave the name to Seven Cities, although no memory survives of that particular truth. The Seven Holy Cities of our time are not the original ones, of course. Only the number has survived."

L’oric: "Deragoth. What happened to them? Why are they here and not there?"

"I don’t know. Probably it had something to do with the violent collapse of the First Empire."

Later:

Quote

Loric:"You called the Deragoth Hounds of Darkness. Are they children of Mother Dark, then?"

"They are no-one’s children; They have that stench about them, but in truth I have no idea. It just seemed an appropriate name. 'Deragoth' in the Tiste Andii tongue."

And here's TB glossary on the Deragoth:

The Deragoth: of the First Empire of Dessimbelackis The Seven Hounds of Darkness

As for where they are: I'm guessing the Deragoth have gone on to Genabackis for some secret reason (given the name of the next book)

EDIT: On an aside, these immortals (K'rul, Osserc, Anomander Rake, Gothos) seem to have very pithy conversations whenever they make a cameo.

[Aptorian]

SiriusL;227993 said:

There's also a scene in BH where someone...Mappo...is remembering the last Eres'al and how some scary dude with seven black hounds took her away for safe keeping. If this is indeed Dessimbelackis, it indicates that maybe he wasn't a d'ivers, or that he not only could veer into the hounds, but that he also had hounds as BFFs.

Do you mean that scene from RG? How would mappo had seen such a thing, he's only a thousand or so years old.

The Deragoth are still not hounds of darkness, rather they are as ancient/early/primitive as Galain and Chaos.

[Mentalist]

ummm.. I'm not so sure about the whole "degaroth enslaved humanity"....

from what I gathered from HoC when osserc is talking about them, they DOMESTICATED the Eres'al, the first hominid species on Wu. And, were in turn worshipped, (untill the arrival of the Elder Gods, I presume).
As for the possibility of them ruling now--there's plenty of Toblakai out there. Plus, it all goes back to the "old, dormant power isn't worth nything in the modern times" theme, that is constantly re-illustrated with Raest, DN, Kallor, etc....

[tharinock]

kud all your points are good except for the one about the Toblakai. Not all Toblakai are Karsa. In fact, an entire tribe has been enslaved by humans. Karsa keeps mentioning about how the rest of his tribe are nothing compared to him when he is first introduced, and how they are all weak. Thus the fact that there are other Toblakai doesn't mean much anymore.

[Aptorian]

Actually, no. Karsa remarks, in HoC, that the Teblor tribes are all different. The tribes that were first subjugated were by all acoounts the weakest and smallest of the Teblor, The tribes up in the Uryds area are as strong and evil as karsa. Just look at how bairoth and delum fought.

As long as the Teblor stay out of pitched battles and pick their own term of battle, they'd crush anyone entering their lands.

[Dancer+]

Aptorian;228637 said:

Actually, no. Karsa remarks, in HoC, that the Teblor tribes are all different. The tribes that were first subjugated were by all acoounts the weakest and smallest of the Teblor, The tribes up in the Uryds area are as strong and evil as karsa. Just look at how bairoth and delum fought.

As long as the Teblor stay out of pitched battles and pick their own term of battle, they'd crush anyone entering their lands.

Slaughtered by a FA...pff.

Some of the teblor are too watered down, and these were the ones easily conquered. The other tribes by Karsa's own are significantly more difficult to defeat, 8-10 feet giants

I think a few cussers would do the trick.

[Dolorous Menhir]

tharinock;228595 said:

kud all your points are good except for the one about the Toblakai. Not all Toblakai are Karsa. In fact, an entire tribe has been enslaved by humans. Karsa keeps mentioning about how the rest of his tribe are nothing compared to him when he is first introduced, and how they are all weak. Thus the fact that there are other Toblakai doesn't mean much anymore.

It's important to remember that Karsa and his kin are Teblor, not Toblakai. They differ in more than name. Teblor seem to be weaker and smaller than the ancient TTT, although Karsa seems to be a throwback to the old model.

[Fiddler]

Don't forget the 'Faces In the Rock' bit about making the teblor immune to certain infections, stronger, hardier and 'culling the herd' so to speak by demanding the sacrifice of the less than perfect children, thus pulling them from the breeding stock. Karsa has been groomed for his role since before birth if the intimations by the 'Faces in the Rock' bit is accurate, they talk of how they've shaped him and suchlike. One thing I don't get, is by Teblor standards and the standards of the faces in the rock Karsa took 80 years to reach maturity, whereas when he is referred to as Toblakai by shai'iks followers he is assumed to be seventeen years old, with both Leoman and Heboric agreeing on this fact. someone reconcile that one for me.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Fiddler;229559 said:

One thing I don't get, is by Teblor standards and the standards of the faces in the rock Karsa took 80 years to reach maturity, whereas when he is referred to as Toblakai by shai'iks followers he is assumed to be seventeen years old, with both Leoman and Heboric agreeing on this fact. someone reconcile that one for me.

It's an inconsistency. It's not possible to argue that the Teblor "year" is anything other than the normal year everyone else uses. The Teblor live on the same world as everyone else, they are just isolated, so we can't get into any funny-time-warren business. So we have two ages for Karsa. Teens, from DG (I think it was 14 rather than 17, but not important) and 80-odd from HoC.

One possible explanation - Karsa described himself as a Teblor youth to Leoman, and Leoman took that to mean he was a similar age to a human youth. Tenuous, but the best I can think of.

Apart from that, we can just say it's two conflicting pieces of information and be forced to choose the most recent age as the accurate one. Teblor must have very long lives, because many more than two human generations had passed in the time it take to go to Karsa's generation from his grandfather's. So 80-something is reasonable.

[tharinock]

Quote

It's an inconsistency. It's not possible to argue that the Teblor "year" is anything other than the normal year everyone else uses. The Teblor live on the same world as everyone else, they are just isolated, so we can't get into any funny-time-warren business. So we have two ages for Karsa. Teens, from DG (I think it was 14 rather than 17, but not important) and 80-odd from HoC.

One possible explanation - Karsa described himself as a Teblor youth to Leoman, and Leoman took that to mean he was a similar age to a human youth. Tenuous, but the best I can think of.

Apart from that, we can just say it's two conflicting pieces of information and be forced to choose the most recent age as the accurate one. Teblor must have very long lives, because many more than two human generations had passed in the time it take to go to Karsa's generation from his grandfather's. So 80-something is reasonable.

i agree with you on that. i thought of at is teblor have same year, but live longer. that seems to make the most sense.

[Mentalist]

The way I figured, Teblor live a lot longer than humans (so, like coupla centuries, maybe), and thus take longer to mature. Thus in actual years Karsa is 80, but his actions and temperament match those of a human teenager

[UfoCoffee]

I seem to remember a passage near the end of BH where they are discussing the Toblakai being extinct and someone saying no there are still some alive in the Fern mountains and saying that from time to time a great warrior can rise from the Toblakai with almost god-like powers. So Karsa is obviously one of these "special ones".

I can't remember who was talking but someone felt the presence of Toblakai off a ship and mentioned this.

[DarthRahl]

I think you all missed something important here. Paran never had any control over the deragoth, hell he ran for the hills once they where released. If he had any kind of control over them he wouldn't have run away. Para released them because he knew they would eventually hunt down DN because he was their ancient enemy.

Paran just warns Shadow Throne that all shit is about to break loose. I think the best question to ask is why did Shadow Throne lead the Deragoth to Poliel. Also why didn't the deragoth continue to hunt the hounds of shadow? Did the Deragoth become infected with something when they ate the goddess of diseases?

I don't know I just started Reapers Gale last night so I don't know but, those are the answers I'm looking for.

[Mentalist]

Well, for starters, the Degaroth were NOT ooking for Dejim--they went looking for the Shadow Hounds. that's why ST sent his hounds to DN--he didn't want Degaroth stomping around the realm of Shadow chasing his dogs.

[Illuyankas]

I'm pretty sure that the Deragoth could follow the fleeing HoS into the Shadow warren, unless there was a convienient distraction goddess in the way. So ST revealed the HoS, then led them to Poliel, while the Deragoth chased them down.

[Mentalist]

well, yes.. they "had their fill", so to say... for a while, lol