[QuickTidal]

If you scroll back through the pages, there are posts from a few years back when I first started posting here and I made it quite clear that I thought Robert Jordan was a hack, and I didn't like his writing, and that I couldn't make it through The Eye Of The World.....and I continued to think this way, until last week.

A few things happened. One, I saw the outpouring of grief from fans (even those that deem the latter books in the series to be filler), who say that his WOT series paved the way for all those big doorstopper authors we read here, and my old roommate, who has the whole series, and owns the copy of The Eye Of The World that I attempted the first time I tried it..and from which I based my argument as to the mans writing skills. I did what I am not proud of, and based my judgment on the first 50 or 60 pages and never finished the book. I gave up just as Rand and Tam returned to the farm and there was farming going on for a few pages...and I was at work on my lunch and I just found that part boring...so I gave up.

Fast forward to last week (about 2 years since that first attempt), and my old roommate mentioned about Jordan's passing to me, and I thought to myself. The man has now died, and I felt right about taking one more stab at the series to give it the chance it deserved in the first place....I decided that no matter how much I enjoyed it or disliked it, I would read the whole book...and then settle into my judgment.

So I went out Sunday afternoon, and I bought a fresh MMP copy of The Eye Of The World.....and by Monday at my lunch hour I had reached the 60 page farming part...and I kept going...and lo and be-fraking-hold right after that part all hell breaks loose when those Trollocs come looking for Rand....and from that point on I was riveted. I have NOT been able to put it down at all. I cannot fathom that I never gave it a proper chance before. I am loving it! I am pretty sure that I'll be picking up the second book by Friday or Saturday.

So, in conclusion: Jordan=Not a hack, and his writing is fun, and thrilling, and I only had to get past the boring part. I feel bad about branding him a hack before without having read an entire book. That is my mistake.

Wow, so yeah, I'm a bloody WOT fan...how about that!

[Vambram]

Alright, its always glad to see another convert into the world of The Wheel of Time. The first six books are excellent, after that, some ((not myself but other fans)) say that books 7, 8, 9, and 10 are hit and miss with the quality of stories and plotlines. However, all WoT fans agree that book 11, Knife of Dreams is every bit as excellent as books 1 through 6.

[drinksinbars]

glad to see you can come forward and admit when you have been wrong:) well done.

[mxlm]

Hack, no.

Needed different editor, yes.

[QuickTidal]

drinksinbars;210740 said:

glad to see you can come forward and admit when you have been wrong:) well done.

I have come to try to admit all my mistakes as fully as I can...it feels good not to have to hide behind it or make excuses about it.

[paladin]

yea, hes not a hack, im just disappointed that his books get a crapload of recognition and top the fiction best seller lists when there are better fantasy authors selling only to a core enthusiast community eventhough the books have broad appeal/readability

[Ereko]

@ quicktidal: I wouldn't get to overjoyed about it!Books up2 six are good!Wait until book 8 until you talk about boring!

But all in all I would say I like the series. A little long winded perhaps but hopefully book 12 whenever it comes will close up the series well!!

Fingers Crossed:(

[Slum]

Yes, they were great. Until the plot stopped moving forward, that is. I came to Jordan somewhat late in the series and devoured the first half. However, after getting caught up and having a to wait a year for Winter's Heart, I too became annoyed with the meandering, go-nowhere path the author had chosen for his characters. I was anticipating something great, but instead got almost a full novel of Aes Sedai conversations/non-central plotlines. Unfortunately, that was a problem with most of the second-half of the series. Knife of Dreams didn't strike me as much of an improvement either. Of course, by that time I had already found Erikson and was bound to be underwhelmed. Still, the guy probably didn't deserve the rations of shit heaped upon him by a lot of us disenchanted readers. I think Scott Lynch wrote a great goodbye on his blog, and it's from the perspective a former Jordan-hater. http://scott-lynch.livejournal.com/

[Dolorous Menhir]

Knife of Dreams is only considered good because by the time it came out expectations were so low they were practically negative. People were just relieved it contained more thrilling action than Elayne having her bathwater changed.

[Vambram]

Dolorous Menhir;210901 said:

Knife of Dreams is only considered good because by the time it came out expectations were so low they were practically negative. People were just relieved it contained more thrilling action than Elayne having her bathwater changed.

I disagree that Knife of Dreams was only considered good because the expectations for it were so low.

[QuickTidal]

Haha. I plan to continue with the series whatever the bore is in the later books....once I get past one book I won't stop....I'm a completionist.

[Vambram]

That is excellent to hear. Because sometimes in order to completely read & enjoy a huge epic fantasy, one has to deal with material and chapters and plotlines that are infuriating, or simply just plain boring. I have read and enjoyed all of the MoBtF books, including Reaper's Gale, and even for our highly esteemed beloved Erikson, I find that sometimes I have to plod through boring parts of the book, or annoying plotlines.

[QuickTidal]

Vambram;210962 said:

That is excellent to hear. Because sometimes in order to completely read & enjoy a huge epic fantasy, one has to deal with material and chapters and plotlines that are infuriating, or simply just plain boring. I have read and enjoyed all of the MoBtF books, including Reaper's Gale, and even for our highly esteemed beloved Erikson, I find that sometimes I have to plod through boring parts of the book, or annoying plotlines.

Aye, they are few and far between but there ARE boring parts in the Malazan series too. I agree.

[death tribble]

Because of the epic scale I truely think that the Wheel of Time series is the only one that we can compare the Malazan series to.
I like the Wheel of Time and I like the Malazan series. Both do something that other authors do not. Take you into different viewpoints.
So there are those who will like the military in the Malazan series like Fiddler and Hedge while others like the Ascendents like Rake or particular races like T'Lan Imass. Similarly in the Wheel of Time you will have those who like Rand and his companions and those who like the other characters like Brigette or races like the Aiel. I mean who can't like a race of spear wielders who will go straight for the Ringwraith like character and the latter will actually be scared of them ?

There are problems with the books. One of the big ones for me is the enemy infantry. Trollocs. Troll Orc. The name is derivitive and the whole part beast part man thing has been done to death. Another is the name of the evil one is too close to the Devil in the Bible.
But there is plenty to like. Different people and customs. Men and women using different magic. When Paladins go wrong (The Children of Light). The Aiel. How history is corrupted and adapted. The big bad guys and their lack of unity.
And in one of the last books something legendary being done by Rand and Nynaeve. I confess I did not see it coming but was delighted by it. It is the stuff of good story telling and for the setting it is the stuff of legend.

[Werthead]

death tribble;212918 said:

Because of the epic scale I truely think that the Wheel of Time series is the only one that we can compare the Malazan series to.
I like the Wheel of Time and I like the Malazan series. Both do something that other authors do not. Take you into different viewpoints.
So there are those who will like the military in the Malazan series like Fiddler and Hedge while others like the Ascendents like Rake or particular races like T'Lan Imass. Similarly in the Wheel of Time you will have those who like Rand and his companions and those who like the other characters like Brigette or races like the Aiel. I mean who can't like a race of spear wielders who will go straight for the Ringwraith like character and the latter will actually be scared of them ?

I am getting a "Haven't read GRRM," vibe here

[Obdigore]

Vambram;210922 said:

I disagree that Knife of Dreams was only considered good because the expectations for it were so low.

And I Agree with DM.

Knife was only good because he advanced some of the plots, and things were actually happening again, instead of just 'positioning' which had really been the 4 or so books before it.

Imo, books 1-3 were very good. Books 4, 5, 6 got progressivly worse, slowly, as everything got more complex...

I almost think he 'wrote himself into a corner'. Jordan liked his tiny little points made, and all details laid out (smooths skirt, tugs braid, rolls eyes) and, with all the storylines the books became too long for him to advance anything at all very 'fast' (or even a mediocre pace).

The latest book is actually 'Taimon Gaidon (I think thats spelled right, its been a while)' is almost here, instead of 'Its 15 years off, lololol' that has been every single book before it.

If the quality of Knife of Dreams was where the series started, and remained, I probably wouldn't have continued reading after book 2.

@DeathTribble (nice name btw) Read GRRM...... Malazan, and to a lesser extent, GRRM's stuff, feels just so much more 'epic' than the Jordan stuff. Jordan's world seems smaller, and it has all been done before, and the fact that 5 kids from a tiny little village become 5 of the most powerful people in the world? (Yes, I know Jordan re-vitalized the genre.)

[Sir Thursday]

I'll third the viewpoint that Knife of Dreams is only considered good because it got the plot moving again. Sure stuff happened, but not much of it happened very well. Plotlines are resolved, but they happen in incredibly anticlimactic fashion and are lacking in emotional impact. Jordan's style of writing seems empty and unembellished in KoD, as if he had taken everyone's complaints about the series and decided to completely change the way he wrote. True, gone were the incessant braid-pulling and skirt-smoothing, but gone also was detailing and description that was actually a good thing. And this devalues the events Jordan tried to tell the tale of, sapping them of their power and compellingness. The major example I'm talking about is:

Spoiler

Rand falling into Semirhage's trap, but getting away. From memory, it was resolved in about 5-10 pages. So yeah, Rand loses an arm, but because of the speed that Jordan whizzes through the scene with, I didn't feel particularly shocked or awed by the event.

So yeah, my personal view is that Knife of Dreams is below the quality of the better volumes of tWoT (personally I thought TDR and LoC were the best), and probably sits around the level of TGH (which, to be honest, was rather boring and I would rank as the poorest of the first 7 novels). Definitely above the level of PoD, WH and CoT (shudder) but not by as much as I've heard people say.


Sir Thursday

[QuickTidal]

death tribble;212918 said:

There are problems with the books. One of the big ones for me is the enemy infantry. Trollocs. Troll Orc. The name is derivitive and the whole part beast part man thing has been done to death.

I think though, that when you think of when it was written the only things that came before it that were similarly like LOTR was stuff like Dragonlance...where they didn't even bother to change the names of creatures from LOTR, let alone what they look like. Jordan obviously borrows elements from Tolkien, but at the time he wrote the first one I don't think many had done that....I could be wrong though. What came before him was the 80's and the 80's were an ODD decade for Fantasy really.

[Yellow]

Sir Thursday;213984 said:

So yeah, my personal view is that Knife of Dreams is below the quality of the better volumes of tWoT (personally I thought TDR and LoC were the best), and probably sits around the level of TGH (which, to be honest, was rather boring and I would rank as the poorest of the first 7 novels). Definitely above the level of PoD, WH and CoT (shudder) but not by as much as I've heard people say.


Sir Thursday

It's weird how it's possible to agree overall, but not on the fine points Totally agree with your main point, but you listed one of my favourites in the series as one of your worst (TGH), and one of my most hated as one of your favourites (TDR, and damn, I had to stop reading the series for about 6 months after that book... only the fact that the 4th, and thankfully the best, book of the series was already on my shelf drew me back in). Swings and roundabouts. You're spot on about the whole

Spoiler

Rand hand

thing. How much did I not give a shit about that? It was ridiculous.

Ooh, btw, a short and fairly unrelated rant - I think that just because a book may have done great things for its genre (e.g. WoT or LotR or whatever) and was fairly original for its time (e.g. LotR... but sorry, can't include the Eye of the World anywhere near the top of the originality table), it doesn't mean it always has to stand as one of the greats. Sure it was great in its time, but time moves on. Almost all of the old 1930s movies were genre defining, but pure shite in comparison to almost all of today's movies.

[Imperial Historian]

@ Sir Thursday

Reading your spoiler there I've just realised...

Spoiler

I remember reading that scene... but I had no idea he'd lost a limb, either my memory has completely failed me or Jordan's ability to affect me has completely vanished

And I'd agree knives was only an improvement when compared to the dross that had gone before, cot, Wh and Pod, though I didn't hate them as much as some were awful, and knives was definitely better, but nowhere near as good as some of the first 6, well 3-6 anyway, i always found 1 + 2 a bit boring in comparison.